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Re: 4 Inch tesla coil - Inquiries



Original poster: "Barton B. Anderson" <bartb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

The coil has even lower coupling that I thought due to the secondary height above the primary plane (near 0.06). Rebuilding the primary would be a great idea. You could even use the same acrylic. Just drill the tywrap runner holes inward for inside turns (assuming the center hole was not cut out). You could then cut a center hole about 1/2" larger than the secondary form and slide it down from the top. Although you could use the same tubing, it would be best to use a new one without the hardened bends (to make it perty).

One problem I see that you did on your tywraps is to drill 2 holes to hold down the winding. This almost always results in a very loose primary, and no matter how tight you make the tywraps, they won't hold the primary in position. What I do if using tywraps is to drill a single hole where I want the primary to be tied. I slide the tywrap up through the hold, then around the tubing, and back down the same hole finally fastening it on the bottom.

For 1/4" tubing, the holes are distanced 1/2" from one to the next. When starting the hole pattern, mark the center in the acrylic. Then mark your first tywrap hole (turn 1) at the distance you decide on. For the remaining runners, you need to add a distance to ensure a fluid growing of the primary. Divide the center spacing by the number of runners to find how much to add from marking the inner holes. For your 4 runner primary and assuming you want 1/4" spacing using 1/4" od tubing, the center to center spacing is 1/2". So, 0.5/4=0.125, so add 1/8" inch more from the center of the acrylic for runner #2, and so on. After your 4 inner runner holes are marked, then simply mark off 1/2" from each inner hole outward where the tywraps will be placed. Here's a pic of something similar.

http://www.classictesla.com/photos/tgk/21.jpg

But, you may want to do something other than tywraps. Look around at what others have done and find what you think you would like to do. Tywraps are pretty easy, so I used them in the past simply because of that. But lately I am fond of using non-conductive runners where the primary can be snapped in and held in place. A bit more work on the design and requires more work to make, but it does look good (well, after a few trial and errors, it will look good). But for quick and easy primary's, tywraps are hard to beat.

The spark gap is as I imagined it. Build a large pipe gap. The sphere's are going to heat and pit the brass spheres due to your cap energy (your bang energy is high and based on the cap voltage and cap size). Your gap would probably do ok for a low energy coil, but not for the energy your running. You want to dissipate and stabilize that heat. To do that, you need a material that is quick to heat and to cool. The thin walls of a copper pipe have little mass and are quick to heat. But, they are also quick to cool, so using forced air through those pipes will cool them easily. You then find the amount of air needed to keep the pipes relatively cool. Usually, guys just throw a fan at it and call it done. Most of the time that's ok. Sometimes, there's just not enough air for the pipe sections used. If the pipes get hot, increase air flow. I personally like large 1.25" pipes inside a cylinder and then I suck the air through the pipes. Here's a pic.

http://www.classictesla.com/photos/ba45/s2752.jpg

All I did there was epoxy a 4" cut of 4.5" pvc to the open hole on the squirrel cage fan (and painted green since that was the only color in the cabinet). I then used a slightly smaller pvc form (just happened to fit nicely inside the epoxied pvc form on the fan) to epoxy the copper pipes into place. Pretty simple to make. Note the solid brass section in front of the copper pipe section. The brass sucked! The copper pipes are far superior at thermal stabilization. What is nice about a gap like this is that the white pvc can be slid out easily (which is nice for testing various gap styles and really why I did it like this). Also, the white portion was actually a pvc cap. I simply cut a hole in the bottom leaving a 1/4" lip to set the copper pipes onto for positioning. Too much lip will hinder air flow (the brass section actually had too much lip, but this is actually the first of two brass sections where I used a small lip on the second, but the brass still did not do well). The gap could be improved by adding a center plastic baffle between the pipes which would further force air over and through only the pipes, but I didn't find that necessary once I used the large copper sections. I actually did that when I tested the solid brass gap, but the brass itself simply maintains the heat (which is the whole problem). You just can cool it down with air flow like a pipe gap can be cooled.

Take care,
Bart

PS. Sorry to be long winded.


Tesla list wrote:

Original poster: "Hydrogen18" <hydrogen18@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

I now have some pictures at:

http://www.hydrogen18.com/projectlogs/hivolt/4inchtesla/

and in response to your concerns:

Primary to secondary coupling - I think I should rebuild my primary to locate the first turn of both coils as close together as possible without the risk of arc over.

Spark gap- My current spark gap is an improvement over previous designs( http://www.hydrogen18.com/projectlogs/hivolt/3inchtesla/IMG_6748.jpg ) but is still poor. I was noticing heat buildup while running the coil on 4/2/2007. Would adapting the 1/2 copper pipe up to 3/4 inch and then putting pipe caps on function better than this setup? I presume I could drill holes in it to allow for more airflow throughout it?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tesla list" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2007 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: 4 Inch tesla coil - Inquiries


Original poster: "Barton B. Anderson" <bartb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Hello,

Lot's of detailed information and annotation regarding your coil. Thanks for that. I think most would agree that the spark gap is the biggest are of concern, but I'd like to intersperse comments. See below.


Tesla list wrote:

Original poster: "Hydrogen18" <hydrogen18@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

I've got a 4 inch tesla coil that I've pulled out of storage and set about improving and trying to make into a more logical setup. Specs are as follows

Secondary - 4 inch Schedule 80 pipe, 1500 turns 28 awg, 18 inches long


If it's 28 awg magnet wire, it's about a maximum of 1230 turns if closewound with no winding error for an 18 inch winding length. That is based on thin insulation as well. If it were double or triple insulation, the turns would be even less. Not a big deal, but I do like to note discrepancies. To verify, mark off 1 inch of winding and count the turns in that 1 inch space (I like to simply use masking tape to mark off the 1" area). You should count about 68 turns for 1230 turn coil.

Primary - Coil of 1/4 inch copper pipe, about 13 turns worth. laid out flat and zip tied to plexiglass. 1/4 spacing between turns. about 2 foot overall diameter.


Wow, that must be quite a large inner primary hole (3.25 inch spacing between primary and secondary). Yields a low coupling. If you even rebuild the primary, you could certainly tighten that up to about 1" to 1.5" spacing).

Spark gap - Static style, 1 inch spherical brass drawer pulls mounted to 1/2 inch copper pipe. This can be adjusted really easily. A cheap blower supposedly running at 25000 rpm blows alot of air in an uncontrolled fashion across these. They get pretty dang hot, but the arc seems to be quenched pretty well, although I have no first hand experience with spark gaps outside of my own design.


Biggest problem is the spark gap. The brass drawer pulls are often solid brass. Once they heat up your discharge voltage across the two sphere's will decrease and output will suffer dramatically, even with a fan across them. You would probably gain the best performance rebuilding the spark gap to maybe a heavy duty static gap such as a RQ/TCBOR style (pipes mounted inside a PVC tubing with a goodly fan either sucking or blowing across the pipes). I recommend large 1.25 inch diameter pipe segments (available ready to go in 3" or 4" segments at most hardware stores). They will cool much faster and will maintain a steady state temp with proper air flow.

Topload - 12 inch toroidish thing with a section of 4 inch dryer duct stacked around it. Seems to discourage primary strikes pretty well, although it was designed for such


Should be fine.

Tank Cap - 942C20P15K's(2000 VDC 0.15MFD) in strings of 8, up to 3 strings of these in paralell(plenty more strings ready to be assembled). Mounted in a wooden box but the capacitors themselves are in 180 degree sections of PVC pipe for insulation. Connection is made at all junctions to the strings by means of 1/4-20 brass bolt.


This is fine to. The full cap bank capacitance is 0.0563uF. Based on your system, you are probably tuning in about 5 turns. The cap size explains the narrow tuning range as well. I'll comment later on that.

Power supply - 4 MOTS producing around 9500 volts RMC AC, current is limited by 10 lbs 10 AWG wrapped around a 3 inch piece of Schedule 80 with an adjustable iron core(I have also left the shunts in the MOTS, as I see no need to drive them as hard as some people do; mine are not under oil but epoxy potted). Driven by a 30 Amp 240 VAC outlet, I do not feel this is the limitation in my setup.


Should be good for lots of current. No problems there.

So far my recent attempts have yielded point to point strikes of 28 inches or more; longer arcs accounting for the bend. That was with 2 capacitor strings. Attempting to use 3 capacitor strings seems to make finding a tuning point impossible, all I suceeded in doing was getting the primary so hot I burned myself(this was in just a second or so of having the spark gap firing). I am dumb tuning this coil, just starting at turn one and moving out until I get a large response, and then making smaller movements from there. I've made the following conclusions:


Yes, less capacitance will increase the range of tuning. There's a ratio of C and L for any given resonant frequency. The more C you have, the less L you have to play with.

- Steel anywhere in the primary circuit basically destroys performance and likes to get really hot.


It can if it's close enough to the field.

- Tuning seems to be very pecuilar on a lower coupling coil(I had 3 inch coil in the past with 'high' coupling between the primary and secondary, you could make turns of adjustment to the primary without noticeable output in spark).


It's not the lower coupling, it's the fact that the tank cap value is so large compared to the inductance required to tune into the resonant frequency of the secondary. If the cap were 10 times smaller, your tuning sensitivity would decrease by the same amount.

- The charging current available to the coil doesnt seem to affect things much, other than the spark gap getting louder.


The charging current, as long as it is beefy enough to charge the caps within a decent time frame will never be problem. But if a weak tranny were used, you would then experience charging problems.

- This spark gap is better than the last, because I don't have to wait for it to cool down between runs. It takes a very long time run time for the initial breakdown voltage to change due to tempature of the electrodes. They are hotter than a car brake rotor at the parts you can observe, but I suspect where it matters they are remaining cool. They also dont require a resurfacing every 30 seconds of runtime.


Still a problem. Solid brass will not perform as well as properly designed copper pipe gap unless something special were added to them to allow quick dissipation of the heat. Of course, it's very easy to build a poor copper pipe gap as well. Large radius, proper spacing, and well designed air flow are the main ingredients for a nice running pipe gap.

And I've got these concerns:

- My primary is very poor. The spacing is nonuniform. I think tuning is changing because the turns are not held very securely.


Nope, tuning is not changing. A primary with a lot of gap to gap differences will only look ugly, it will still perform just as well a nicely wound primary. The only time it might cause a problem is if two segments were close enough to arc together. Tuning will not change unless the caps were heating up and changing their value. Most likely, primary and gap heating is simply changing the arc voltage and decreasing performance. Easy to identify: basically, it starts out good and after a little while of running, sparks start diminishing in length.

- Should I add another gap to my static spark gap? Are there any telltale signs of an overloaded static power gap? I know that the signs of a 'power arc'(the deep orange-reddish arc that does not quench) or rapid electrode erosion are two to look for, and I have neither.


Look for heat. If their getting hot, your definitely going to have problems. I would rebuild this part of the system first. A lot of people here have built a lot of different gap types that work well. Almost anything would beat the brass sphere's on a coil like yours which has a big tank cap and lots of energy.

- I have a safety gap on my transformer, so I'm not concerned about opening my spark gap up too much. But is there a primary side side RMS VAC that I shouid aim to have the spark gap breakdown at?


Opening the gap will increase the voltage required to arc the gap. This won't help and only puts the MOT stack at risk. For 1" brass sphere's, about 0.18" is about right for 10500V output. I wouldn't go beyond 0.2 myself.

My questions are from here:

- Should I bother improving the primary? I'm not getting turn to turn arcing, it's the inconsistency of the shape that's my concern.


I would. Mainly for raising the coupling. Again, the shape is not a concern, but low coupling can be if it's too low and your energy is large (which it is).

- What's the maximum size capacitor for this coil I can reasonably expect to run?(I know my limitation is the spark gap, and probably will be for all my coiling years given the easy availability of large dangerous HV transformers)


Well, actually, depending on the MOT's, you could probably go to a larger cap size. The problem is that the coil is small for such energy and a larger cap is unnecessary for spark lengths. Your better working on reducing the thermal losses.

- Why is my primary getting so darn hot? Is off resonance driving of the coil the cause of this?


Well, first, the primary tank energy is high. You are dumping a lot of current into the primary. Secondly, the coupling is quite low. This can be similar to running the primary without a secondary in place (which is a big no no). You need a load to dump the energy to, otherwise, the primary has to get rid of all that energy somehow. Heat is natures backup mechanism. I would lower the capacitance from your two strings of 8 to two strings of 16 for .0188uF. This will increase the primary tap requirement to about 8 turns with your primary as is. A few reasons is you will put more L into the circuit, decrease that energy to something the coil would be happy with, and your peak voltage out the tranny is nearing 15kV (the 8 string is good for 16kV which is a little close). Adding the extra caps per string will help the voltage rating of the cap bank.

- Is there a better(intelligent, mathematical) method of tuning the coil I can employ?


Use a design program would be beneficial so you know at least the ball park for any given configuration.
http://www.classictesla.com/java/javatc.html

Also, you could employ a generator and oscilloscope to do the same.

- What kind of spark length performance should I expect from this coil?


Far better than your getting. There are just too many losses throughout the system robbing all your power. For reference, here is a similar coil in size but only uses a 12kV 60mA NST. This one also uses a .0188uF MMC.
http://www.classictesla.com/photos/ba45/ba45.html

- Any other obvious mistakes?


Heat is the obvious problem. That's the thing to work on. Also, if you do use a smaller cap size and you want to rewind your primary, remember 1 to 1.5" clearance.

Take care,
Bart