Re: Inductance of a capacitor? (fwd)/ Vice Versa (fwd)

["Tesla list" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>]

Original poster: Gerry Reynolds <greynolds@xxxxxxxxxx>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 18:45:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Harvey Norris <harvich@xxxxxxxxx>
To: Tesla list <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Inductance of a capacitor? (fwd)/ Vice Versa


--- Tesla list <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Original poster: Gerry Reynolds
> <greynolds@xxxxxxxxxx>
> 
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 08:56:37 -0300
> From: Antonio Carlos M. de Queiroz
> <acmdq@xxxxxxxxxx>
> To: Tesla list <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: Inductance of a capacitor? (fwd)
> 
> Tesla list wrote:
> > Original poster: Gerry Reynolds
> <greynolds@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 19:48:34 EST
> > From: StephenTetorka@xxxxxx
> > To: tesla@xxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: Inductance of a capacitor?
> >
> > It is my understanding that capacitors have some -
> even small - amount of 
> > inductance.
> >
> > Anybody know how to calculate such inductance
> amount?
> >
> >   
> Use the same formula for the inductance of a
> straight wire, considering 
> the length of the capacitor, and wiring
> between the connection points. About 1 uH per meter,
> more or less 
> depending on the exact geometry, but
> in this range. I posted a rather text post about
> this some time ago.
> 
> Antonio Carlos M. de Queiroz
Hi Antonio 
Does this imply standard usage of flat plate
capacities, and wouldn't concentric or radial
capacities contin a more significant amount of
internal inductance?  Perhaps you might comment on the
other side of the coin whereby inductors having a
significant amount of internal capacity show a
difference in the resultant resonant frequency when
coupled with another discreet external capacity and
arc gap as occurs in the tesla primary.  This might be
proven by using a primary of significant width
fashioned as  a copper ribbon primary; and by
recording the inductance; and matching a specific
capacity to resonate with the correspondingly
predicted secondary for resonance. If the coil worked
as predicted by formulas, then the internal capacity
of the primary would not change the predicted resonant
frequency of the entire coil system. However my
opinion is that it should.

In some experimental endeavors some years ago,
multilayered radial tight winds of 30 some plastic
insulated 1/8 inch wide ribbon type inductors using
wider ribbon type speaker wire with insulation were
investigated for resonant frequency via scope
observation. Both single and multilayered spirals were
recorded as scope forms. The remarkable thing is that
internal capacity of the recording scope itself may
enter the picture. A larger area of aluminum foil
connected to a low amperage/ higher voltage arc gap
was triggered in such a way that an arc gap was
connected in series with the foil surface area, and
then the spiral inductors suspended over the plate
area. At a certain suspension above the foil; scoped
forms showing the resultant frequency of the spirals
were observed, but this was not a gradual effect
observed by approaching the spirals to the plate from
a distance; rather the signals only can be recorded
after a certain distance from the plate, and if this
distance is exceeded, the signals drop to nothing.
There is not a slow dimunition of signal reception
with increasing distance from the high frequency
source as might be suspected.

Correspondingly if the spirals are lowered closer to
the plate to the point where the scope must be changed
to 5 volts/div to be in range with the signal being
obtained; this being done by changing the probe
setting to 10 x; now a completely different frequency
is obtained from the scope. This implies that the
recording instrument itself alters our observations,
and truly the internal capacity of the scope must be
distorting the frequency we are attempting to observe.

In other methods a cylindrical surface area fashioned
as a sort of ferrite antennae was used as the source
of high frequency excitation,(past article at yahoo
teslafy) and this was  laterally placed between four
layers of these spiralled 50 ft winds totaling 200 ft
in length. Variations between 250,000 and 330,000 hz
were obtained by merely altering exit and enter points
between layers and directions of windings on layers. 
Here it was surmised that wiring arrangements whereby
the highest voltage difference between only the edges
of the ribbon type spirals had brought about a
difference in the vibrations merely by the added
influence of the edges of the spirals against each
other as added internal capacity. If in fact these
were instead square windings with more edge area to be
exploited  between layers a more significant reduction
in resonant frequency would or should be predicted.
But here the main effect shown by simple layering
internal capacity methods on one dimension only shows
that the scope records a frequency some five times
lower then what the quarter wavelength prognosis gives
as a guideline when the speed of light is compared as
a standard. Much has been written already concerning
the discrepancy of the quarter wavelength guideline
for prediction of resonant frequencies, but these 
mostly involve predictions whereby the resonant
frequency is increased, but the idea of the influence
of internal capacity on a multilayered inductor is, or
seems to be a little studied object: and the results
are the opposite ; a reduction of resonant frequency
via added internal capacity. 

Now the usages of this prediction may not be readily
evident.  From what I have been ridiculed off list for
was the suggestion that is this; IF THE INTERNAL
CAPACITY OF THE  INDUCTIVE RESONATOR IS EQUALLED BY AN
DISCREET EXTERNAL CAPACITY IN COMBINATION WITH ARC GAP
TO REVEAL THE RESULTANT RESONANT FREQUENCY; TWICE THE
NEEDED (EXTERNAL)CAPACITY WILL BE NEEDED TO PRODUCE
THE RESULTS PREDICTED BY EQUATION.

My observation and prediction is that internal
capacity combines with external capacity in series
exactly or closely resembling the ordinary capacitive
series laws. This method might be a way of more
exactly determining the (intrinsic) effect of internal
capacity in an inductor.

In fact if this were true, on the reverse side of the
coin a certain inductance requiring a certain capacity
to resonate at a certain frequency can now use a
larger capacity , (OR ENERGY TRANSFER) to produce the
same effect, but now a larger energy tranfer via
capacitive external storage can be used at the same
frequency; thus the coil system might be enhanced at
that particular frquency of operation, by mere change
of primary design.

Speaking of the increase of internal capacity by these
means; the most important mathematical subject to be
studied is the meaning of the magic square, and beyond
that the relatively new discoveries of magic cubes. 
These balanced mathematical tables are nothing more
then formulas to produce the highest (two dimensional)
internal capacity by wiring methods. The simplest
formula of first generation magic squares shows that
diagonal, rather then lateral layerings should be used
on a potential primary deseign using square inductor
shaped primary wire.

Sincerely Harvey D Norris