Thank you sirs for the explanation.
Just one of the many things I hope to understand about TCs.
Teddy
On Jul 8, 2018 6:26 PM, "David Rieben" <drieben@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> Hi Tedd,
>
> One must also consider that the flux density of radiant energy intercepted
> on a perpendicular plane from a transmitter source is inversely
> proportional to the square of the distance between the "transmitter" and
> the "receiver". In light of this well established physical science, as well
> as the fact that a closed (i.e. short circuited) strike ring intercepts a
> significant portion of the MAGNETIC flux energy of the primary coil, the
> transmitter/receiver analogy is not really a valid comparison to the
> relatively very "up close and personal" closed strike ring scenario.
>
> David
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tedd Dillard" <tedd.dillard@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Tesla Coil Mailing List" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2018 3:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [TCML] Fixing secondary strikes Re: Bad strike to a 12 inch
> traditional coil (somewhat terminal)
>
>
> Gentlemen permit me a follpw up question.
>> I understand that the heating of a closed loop rail is absorbing energy.
>> But is the energy that which would other wise be going into the primary
>> such that the power into the primary is being reduced?
>> This may be a false example but a radio transmitter transmits the same
>> energy regardless of how many receivers are operating. The energy received
>> by one does not affect that of other receivers
>> Teddy
>>
>> On Jul 8, 2018 12:00 PM, "phil" <pip@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> Teddy.
>>> Your question makes a good point, and the explanation is as Garry states;
>>> I was simply drawing attention to the fact that the coil's owner had
>>> remembered to place a gap in the ring. I'll add something in the
>>> description.
>>>
>>> PS: I'm not aware of situations where you would have a closed loop (maybe
>>> others are?)
>>>
>>> Phil T
>>>
>>>
>>> On 08/07/18 00:45, Tedd Dillard wrote:
>>>
>>> Gentlemen the reasons for my question are;
>>>> 1. I am new at this so am trying to understand how these things work.
>>>> They
>>>> are obviously complicated so getting into details is important.
>>>> 2. In reading past post I remember some discussion on strike rings that
>>>> included some reference to open and closed loop rings but I was not
>>>> clear
>>>> on the issue.
>>>> 3. In the video of the damage to the secondary one of the captions
>>>> indicated an open loop strike ring so I wondered if there was any
>>>> significance to specifying that it was open loop. If no one runs closed
>>>> loop why say it was open?
>>>> Teddy
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 6, 2018 5:22 PM, "Steve White" <steve.white1@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If it is heating then it is absorbing energy. Heat takes energy to
>>>>
>>>>> generate. A closed loop that is grounded would be just as effective as
>>>>> an
>>>>> open loop that is grounded but why would you even want to consider that
>>>>> unless this is just casual interest? It is simple enough to cut a gap
>>>>> in
>>>>> the ring.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Tedd Dillard" <tedd.dillard@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> To: "Tesla Coil Mailing List" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 6, 2018 8:16:04 AM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [TCML] Fixing secondary strikes Re: Bad strike to a 12
>>>>> inch
>>>>> traditional coil (somewhat terminal)
>>>>>
>>>>> Carl thank you for your quick response.
>>>>> In a closed loop does the energy going in to heating the loop detrack
>>>>> from
>>>>> the energy going into the primary or is the heating the only issue?
>>>>> Is there any effect on the effectiveness of the loop to protect the
>>>>> primary
>>>>> if it is an open loop.
>>>>> Teddy
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jul 5, 2018 10:15 PM, "Carl Noggle" <cn8@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hey--
>>>>>
>>>>> A closed loop ring will act like a single shorted turn coupled to the
>>>>> primary. If it has a much bigger radius than the primary, it probably
>>>>> won't absorb too much power. But is it's close, it will absorb a lot
>>>>> of
>>>>> power just heating up the ring. Putting a small gap in the ring
>>>>> eliminates
>>>>> this problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> --- Carl
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/5/2018 5:51 PM, Tedd Dillard wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Gentlemen this may not be best place to ask this question but I noticed
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> in
>>>>>
>>>>> the vedio that it was an open loop strike ring. Comments on the
>>>>>>
>>>>>> difference
>>>>>
>>>>> in an open loop vs closed loop strike ring please.
>>>>>> Teddy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2018 1:31 PM, "Bert Hickman" <bert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil, Steve, and all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sorry for the damage to your secondary, Phil. The videos were
>>>>>>> excellent
>>>>>>> and will hopefully lead to good discussion here and effective
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> preventative
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> measures for higher power systems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A thick coating of 2-part epoxy or polyester may accomplish a similar
>>>>>>> function as PMMA tubing at significantly lower cost. When uniformly
>>>>>>> coated,
>>>>>>> errant strikes to the secondary will "splash" outward across a
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> relatively
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> wide area of the outer surface of the coated secondary. The coating
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> dissipates spark energy by spreading it out and capacitively
>>>>>>> conducting
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> to the secondary without creating damaging hot spots. In practice, I've
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> seen hot primary-secondary flashovers that left NO permanent or
>>>>>>> visible
>>>>>>> effect on thickly-coated secondaries. These would have undoubtedly
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> caused
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> melting and turn-turn shorts on an unprotected secondary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your system also has a comparatively large topload OD compared to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> primary
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> OD. You may want to consider adding one or two additional,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> larger-diameter,
>>>>>>> strike rails to spread out the E-field "footprint" of the base. These
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> alter the E-field between the topload and base, making it more vertical
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (in
>>>>>>> the space between the two) helping to reduce strikes to the
>>>>>>> secondary.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> larger strike rails could be an add-on that can be removed before
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> transporting the coil, and they would would require any changes to
>>>>>>> your
>>>>>>> existing primary winding.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You may also want to consider adding a smaller toroid under the top
>>>>>>> toroid. By elevating the top toroid, you'll increase the outward
>>>>>>> "throw"
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> sparks while further reducing hits to the strike rail. In the latest
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> video
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> there were a number of hits to the strike rail that came quite close to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> flashing over to the lower half of the secondary even at 100 BPS. The
>>>>>>> hotter 200 BPS strikes combined with thermal rise seems to have
>>>>>>> tipped
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> balance, unfortunately.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Good luck and best wishes,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Steve White wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have also had this idea for some time. I would love for somebody to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> try
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> this but even if it works I don't know if any of us could stand the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> expense.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Steve
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>>> From: "Phillip Strauss via Tesla" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> To: "Tesla Coil Mailing List" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 4:02:13 PM
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [TCML] Fixing secondary strikes Re: Bad strike to a 12
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> inch
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> traditional coil (somewhat terminal)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello Jim,
>>>>>>>> Although very costly in the UK, I was considering a 350mm diam cast
>>>>>>>> acrylic 1 metre long tube (that's how it comes) with 5mm wall
>>>>>>>> thickness
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> go over my 300mm (12") diam secondary, it would cover about the
>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> thirds of the tube, a good few inches higher than the previous strikes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your comment on a dissipative tube caught my eye for that particular
>>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>>> but I don't understand the concept of loading or that my idea would
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> work,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> any explanation and/or prediction would be much appreciated.I'm
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> contemplating your other suggestions (which are totally novel
>>>>>>>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=her+suggestions+(which+are+
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> totally+novel&entry=gmail&source=g>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> to me) with
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> interest.
>>>>>>>> Regards,Phillip.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ____________________________________________________________
>>>>>>>> _________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 14 Broad Street, Stamford, Lincs PE9 1PG
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tel: 01780 753008
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, 4 July 2018 21:26:39 BST, jimlux <
>>>>>>>> jimlux@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 7/4/18 11:40 AM, David Rieben wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Phil,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My deepest condolences for your loss. I know it's JUST a secondary
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> coil,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> but as a fellow coiler, I most assuredly feel your pain. On the bright
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> side, at least you did manage to capture some truly spectacular
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> footage
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> of this secondary coil mishap. I have had this happen on rare occasion
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> with the operation of my big coil, though fortunately, none of my
>>>>>>>>> mishaps turned out quite that severe! Only once did I actually have
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> repair some damage to the side of my coil and was able to get it
>>>>>>>>> back
>>>>>>>>> into full functioning mode via the repair. Since I must operate
>>>>>>>>> mine
>>>>>>>>> outside, I did have one occasion where the wind actully "blew" one
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the streamers back into the side of my secondary coil, too. Lesson
>>>>>>>>> learned - although refraining from outdoor operation during
>>>>>>>>> rainfall
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> an obvious good rule, non-starters in windy conditions are also well
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> advised.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I suppose this is a risk, that although may be small with a
>>>>>>>>> well-tuned
>>>>>>>>> and efficiently operating coil, is never completely absent. :^/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I wonder if we could figure out a way to segment a large coil
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> vertically, so if a segment gets damaged, you can just rewind that
>>>>>>>> segment. Just off the top of my head, I'm thinking about something
>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>> segments with a hundred turns or so. Could we come up with a way of
>>>>>>>> making the connections in a "good" way. I'm almost thinking about
>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>> you using field grading rings on a Van de Graaff. You don't want a
>>>>>>>> complete shorted turn, but you could terminate the winding in some
>>>>>>>> sort
>>>>>>>> of flat terminal on the "mating face" of a segment. You'd stack the
>>>>>>>> segments, and then put some compression on it (threaded fiberglass
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> rod?)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> The other idea that comes to mind is if there is some way to "spread"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the energy of the secondary strike.. Say your secondary were coated
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> a resistive (but still conductive) coating. Would that spread the
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> current density enough to prevent burning through the insulation? Or
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> dissipative tube covering the secondary - not enough to "load" the
>>>>>>>> secondary, but enough to "take the hit".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> OR, what about a second helix, space wound, that extends the length
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the secondary, with some suitable resistive conductor, so the
>>>>>>>> voltage
>>>>>>>> profile matches that of the secondary (so no protective helix to
>>>>>>>> secondary arcs), but so it doesn't enter into the resonant circuit.
>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>> protective helix would be mostly capacitively coupled to the
>>>>>>>> secondary,
>>>>>>>> establishing the voltage.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What about something like a helix wound with wire, but with small
>>>>>>>> gaps
>>>>>>>> along the length.. the gaps don't break down normally, but if a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> streamer
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> strikes, the gaps break down and provide a conductive (but lossy) path
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> to the base.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Tesla mailing list
>>>>>>>> Tesla@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> https://www.pupman.com/mailman/listinfo/tesla
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Tesla mailing list
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>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Tesla mailing list
>>>>>>>> Tesla@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tesla mailing list
>>>>>>> Tesla@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> https://www.pupman.com/mailman/listinfo/tesla
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tesla mailing list
>>>>>> Tesla@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>
>>>>> Tesla mailing list
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>> Tesla mailing list
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>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards Phil www.hvtesla.com
>>> _______________________________________________
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>
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