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Re: [TCML] "Lifter" power supply questions
Peter,
I'm encouraged that Corona is not necessary for ASC thrust. Neither is oil ionization. Actually generic oil is a covalently
bonded material and there isn't much much ionization going on unless there is some contaminant present. Some oils may
have an attached ionic component such as a hydroxyl or acetal group, which may ionize, but we generally aren't using
these types of "oil" in our experiments. Think about all the HV oil transformers and capacitors we use. It's best if the oil dielectric
doesn't ionize or acquire an electrostatic charge. Of course, when HV electrodes closely approach each other dielectric
breakdown potential may be exceeded and oil may become quite agitated. We all try to avoid that.
I would suggest that in both TCs and ASC thrusters we need to give some thought to the molecular species in the surrounding air
and how they react to EM fields, and in particular, the mean free paths of all these different species.
Any thought as to how force is imparted to TC spinners or ASCs. An easy guess is through the 2nd and 3rd laws.
Stork
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Terren" <pterren@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Tesla Coil Mailing List" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 7:44:20 PM
Subject: Re: [TCML] "Lifter" power supply questions
It wouldn't surprise me if the thrust is a lot greater under oil. Giving
oil an electrostatic charge occurs and oil gets quite agitated under HV..
Corona is not necessary for this, just proximity, radius of curvature of the
electrode and voltage. Of course, the proximity can be much closer under
oil.
A small TC will work with an ionic spinner but not a large TC. I have used
a 14 foot arm that spun well with 60kV DC but not at all with a TC giving 3
foot sparks.
I suspect the difference is how far the charged air moves before the next
reversed voltage cycle.
Too close and the charged air cloud gets attracted back rather than a new
cloud being repelled into relatively uncharged air.
http://tesladownunder.com/Lifters.htm#IonicSpinners
Leaking of charge into air with corona is a chaotic affair in part due to
cosmic radiation.
Anyone who has seen a working cloud chamber will know how much ionisation is
going on unseen.
Cheers
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: stork3264@xxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 3:12 AM
To: Tesla Coil Mailing List
Subject: Re: [TCML] "Lifter" power supply questions
Peter,
I take it that you are aware of ASC thrust under oil? Only a little bit
slower due to the viscosity of oil.
Not a lot of corona or ions under oil. Just maybe there are other
explanations for ASC thrust.
My theory is that the HV hissing and vibration that occurs around a lifter
at HVDC occurs just prior to true break down.
This is responsible for voltage and/or current oscillation which is probably
necessary for ASC thrust. I suspect
dV/dT or even dI/dT is quite important .
The same mechanism is responsible for Tesla coil spinners. The altenating HV
potential being supplied by the TC.
So, here's a question - If a very smoothed regulated HVDC source is applied
to a TC secondary with a
spinner attached to the toroid and slowly ramped up will it spin at HVDC? At
the point of break out from the spinner tips,
will it spin? Lastly, what does the wave form at break of look like?
I have built simple lifters and experimented with flat two dimensional
horizontal ASC thrusters and I agree
with you, this is not antigravity.
Stork
----- Original Message -----
From: mrapol@xxxxxxxxxxxx
To: "Tesla Coil Mailing List" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2011 9:22:08 PM
Subject: Re: [TCML] "Lifter" power supply questions
I appreciate all the advice offered. I'm not a believer in antigravity. I
just wanted to build and fly a lifter. I understand DC is best (or even the
only thing to use), but when other people say I can use ignition coils or
NSTs, I am curious to find out how. The Hamilton Drills induction coil does
not do anything for the lifter but cause it to arc furiously, even using the
HV diodes peddled by the maker.
So far only the flyback in the CRT has done anything for the lifters. I have
built two of the triangular foil-and-wire type, powered by a CRT monitor.
They lift, though not as well as I would like. The device seems very
sensitive to the gauge and length of wire used to connect it to the power
source. If anyone has optimal suggestions on that score I'd like to hear
them.
My ultimate aim is to build a "thruster" on a spindle to demonstrate the
concept to others. I guess I should build a flyback power source (there are
lots of plans for them around), but I was hoping to use one of the devices I
had on hand.
PBT
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Terren" <pterren@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Tesla Coil Mailing List" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: [TCML] "Lifter" power supply questions
> As I have asserted early in this thread, I believe the best performance is
> with smoothed DC to give large amounts of stable corona short of sparking.
> An ignition coil as per the original enquiry is composed of short pulses
> of low duty cycle. Power is only available while the voltage is applied
> so a 10% duty cycle means 10% power for that peak voltage.
> I know of no-one who has constructed a successful lifter with these.
> I have made one that can carry its own weight in payload (3g) using 80kV
> smoothed DC from a CW multiplier derived from a Royer driven flyback.
> http://tesladownunder.com/Lifters.htm#Lifters-80kV
> I agree with Antonio's comments. Sadly lifter enthusiasts are almost as
> prone to pseudoscience as Tesla enthusiasts are and the whole field is
> muddied by antigravity and asymmetrical capacitor nonsense.
> Unfortunately it is real "rocket science" as ion drives are used in a
> thrusters in various spacecraft. Real scientists understand it perfectly
> well and they don't use Naudin's site for reference, I'm sure.
> Amateur experimentation will be plagued by the difficulties of
> measurement. Even simple voltage measurement at the lifter itself is
> difficult and the loading effect of even changing polarity giving
> different corona levels will be significant.
> Similarly any force measurements will be disturbed by electrostatic
> attraction to adjacent structures.
> To keep some association with Tesla coils I have observed that, while
> small coils drive ionic spinners quite well (where corona thrust is also
> used), a large(ish) Tesla coil has almost no effect.
> http://tesladownunder.com/Lifters.htm#IonicSpinners
>
> Cheers
> Peter
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