Re: [TCML] Twin coils primary lead design

[DC Cox <resonance@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

If you have any standing waves on the coaxial line, you could get "Blumlien"
effects which could damage the coaxial line in short order.  The breakdown
could also damage your capacitors, so be sure to use a protective sparkgap
on the caps if you try this experiment.  It takes a lot of HV and energy to
puncture a 250 mil acyrlic plate.


Dr. Resonance




On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 5:52 PM, Peter Terren <pterren@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> The coax is easier to make using available heavy wire and copper tubing and
> is more robust and compact. Hopefully it will be as efficient as a
> transmission line.  There is no risk of primary strikes in my application.
> In my bigger coil I have to cover the HV feed lines with low profile
> extruded aluminium "L" cornering particularly as some of my sparks from a
> rotating breakout point cause a uniform ring of ground strikes.  I didn't
> think of guttering - shame since we just had our house guttering redone.  My
> usual motto is never throw anything out.
>
> Peter  www.tesladownunder.com
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "DC Cox" <resonance@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>
>
> You might also wish to try a "parallel plate transmitter waveguide" like I
>> used in the early 1960s.  It consisted of a wide strip of acrylic sheet,
>> 0.250" thick, and, then on each side I affixed a wide flat copper ribbon,
>> thus forming a capacitive "transmission line" allowing me to transfer
>> power
>> to the coil base.  It had an extremely low inductance (less than 2 uH) at
>> distances up to 30 feet.  Over a 10 ft. distance the inductance would be
>> very low.  One drawback was an occassional flashover from sec HV terminal
>> to
>> the transmission line.  We were using very robust capacitors in our
>> oscillator so no damage was ever sustained by the transmission line
>> strikes.  My acrylic was 8 inches wide and each copper strip was 5 inches
>> wide to allow a very long creepage distance.  All sharp edges on the
>> copper
>> strip were deburred and the edges coated with G.E. Red Glyptal.
>>
>> This was later abandoned when "common sense" dictated I place all the
>> components directly under the coil.  I began using this design around 1971
>> and have used it ever since.  It ended the flashover problems except to
>> the
>> HV feed lines.  Metal raingutter( lay out inverted) is cheap and prevents
>> this problem in large coils.
>>
>> Dr. Resonance
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2009/8/2 Peter Terren <pterren@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>
>> Thanks for all the suggestions. I did switch to a coax setup for primary
>>> lead wires with heavy wire inside about 50cm copper pipe to each primary
>>> and
>>> I think that it improved output over the parallel conductors.
>>> Interesting about the coupling because using a single secondary, I could
>>> induce racing arcs before if I tried to max coupling.. Not as twins,
>>> however, although the 6-7 turns required probably puts the coupling range
>>> back to "normal". I also have plastic wrap on the coils as well.
>>> My application does not permit separate electronics at present and the
>>> leads need to be almost 80 cm.
>>> I am aware of the V-twin at Palais.  I already had the boards and
>>> components for a standard SISG though but a triggered SISG sounds
>>> attractive, particularly if I could use some of my IGBT bricks. The low
>>> turns and high current would require the electronics to be separate and
>>> local which is not suitable here.
>>> So at present I have 80cm sparks between 50cm secondaries.  Certainly
>>> nothing to write home about but is probably adequate.  I am awaiting
>>> better
>>> SIDACs as half were 200V rated and plastic packed so starts firing at
>>> about
>>> 180V on the variac (out of expected 250V)  Had to source them from China
>>> as
>>> the usual suppliers were out of them.  Hopefully that will take sparks up
>>> to
>>> 100cm.
>>> I did flame a MOT today with this arrangement so some voltages are
>>> appearing when they shouldn't. Plenty more where that one came from.
>>> Peter  www.tesladownunder.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bert Hickman" <
>>> bert.hickman@xxxxxxxxxx
>>> >
>>>
>>> Hi Peter,
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The stray inductance of your primary circuit is reducing the effective
>>>> coupling of the twin system. There are several possible fixes, You've
>>>> already  tried one (reducing primary tank capacitance and reducing stray
>>>> inductance).
>>>>
>>>> You could also try increasing the coupling by elevating the primaries
>>>> (only when running as twins). Stray inductance is reduced by reducing
>>>> the diameter of the current loop in the primary circuit(s) by bringing
>>>> supply and return current paths closer together so that their combined
>>>> magnetic fields tend to (mostly) cancel. Some possible options include
>>>> running them closely side by side (like lamp cord or as a twisted pair),
>>>> making a sandwich HV stripline structure with copper strips separated by
>>>> a HV dielectric. One of the best configurations would be to make the
>>>> equivalent of a high voltage/high current hardline coax (as you
>>>> suggested), using a solid outer copper pipe and heavy gauge silicone HV
>>>> wire inside or and inner conductor of 1/4" tubing with insulating
>>>> spacers. This configuration should minimize corona losses versus
>>>> stripline.
>>>>
>>>> You're not looking so much for impedance matching, per se, but canceling
>>>> the stray inductance that messes with your tuning and coupling.
>>>>
>>>> Bert
>>>> --
>>>> ***************************************************
>>>> We specialize in UNIQUE items! Coins shrunk by huge
>>>> magnetic fields, Lichtenberg Figures (our "Captured
>>>> Lightning") and out of print technical Books. Visit
>>>> Stoneridge Engineering at http://www.teslamania.com
>>>> ***************************************************
>>>>
>>>> Peter Terren wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am working on a small twin coil system with a cylinder primary and
>>>>> small spherical topload. Using a single coil only, run by a single MOT
>>>>> SISG, it puts out a 60 cm spark for a 50 cm secondary winding.
>>>>> I am finding results a bit limited when run as a twin system due to the
>>>>> length of the primary leads.  With a series primary arrangement I
>>>>> should
>>>>> tune to 3 turns on the primary but with loose leads this drops to about
>>>>> 1.5 turns which is not efficient and spark length is less than 30cm
>>>>> despite double the power.
>>>>> With parallel primary windings, I should tune to 6 turns but it is
>>>>> reduced to 3 turns with the lead in wire inductance. It seems like I am
>>>>> wasting half of my inductance.
>>>>> Best performance of 90cm sparks with 2 MOT SISG is with a reduced tank
>>>>> capacitance to allow greater inductance in the primary using 8 turns in
>>>>> parallel connected primaries with lead in wires taped together sort of
>>>>> transmission line like.
>>>>> My question: How can I minimise the effect of primary lead inductance.
>>>>> Should I use two close parallel conductors (sort of transmission line
>>>>> like) or would a coax arrangement be better?  I can make up a coax
>>>>> system with copper pipe and plastic tubing covering 1/4 inch tubing. I
>>>>> don't really understand the concept of impedance matching as applied to
>>>>> Tesla coil primaries though or whether it is even likely to be
>>>>> relevant.
>>>>>
>>>>> Any thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter  www.tesladownunder.com
>>>>>
>>>>
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