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RE: [TCML] First (or maybe 2nd) light on my medium-sized SG coil
The modest man that David is, caused him to neglect mentioning the show also
included a great meal as well. His wonderful hospitality made me feel right
at home. Anyway (thanks again for dinner David!), the Green Monster sang
like an angle, and it was about as smooth a coil as I've witnessed and would
guess this thing is as well tuned as can be without riding on the ragged
edge.
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: tesla-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tesla-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf
Of David Rieben
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 11:23 PM
To: Tesla Coil Mailing List
Subject: Re: [TCML] First (or maybe 2nd) light on my medium-sized SG coil
Bart,
Well, list member Terry Oxandale drove over from Little Rock this
evening to pick up the 15 kVA pig that he bought from me. Of course
we had to fire up my coils while he was here. We first fired up the
mid-sized coil before we fired off the Green Monster. Terry also
suggested firing the smaller coil with just one of the .04 uFd caps.
We tried tapping about where you suggested and she opened up to
5 to 6 ft. streamers ;^) Still having a little trouble keeping the current
draw down to sain limits but it is running even smoother now. She's
tapped at about 9 turns like you now suggest and this does seem to
be pretty close to the sweet spot. I am still wondering if I could
get any significant current draw reduction benifit by adding the proper
PFC caps in parallel with the input to the PT?
Take care,
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "bartb" <bartb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Tesla Coil Mailing List" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 6:54 PM
Subject: Re: [TCML] First (or maybe 2nd) light on my medium-sized SG coil
> Hi David,
>
> I certainly understand. I've worried about this as well. I'm sure we all
> hit the rafters in our garage now and then, but it does make one worry. I
> don't have an alarm system or garage opener so I'm good there. Also, I
> relayed the lighting wiring. All I have are wooden rafters, but still, I
> keep the sparks off of them as much as possible. Back in MN I put up a
> ceiling grid. I should probably do something similar again.
>
> Regarding your coil, I must retract my thought's about the 1.5kva with the
> static gap at .04uF (it's not ok). BPS is really low with 0.35" total
> spacing. You need this spacing to take advantage of the higher voltage
> available. However, to accomplish full throttle operation and a nice bps
> range, you should be using a 25nF cap size. This cap size would be ideal
> for your coil using the static gap and will give the best performance. It
> would also tune in a 10.6 turns, so you could take full advantage of the
> full primary.
>
> 25nF would be a good reason to build an MMC! Perfect size for an MMC cap!
> I know you use what's on hand if at all possible (like all of us), but I
> wanted to throw that thought out there.
>
> The .04uF will work far better than the .08uF with the static gap, but if
> you do, best to keep the gap spacing where it is now to get the bps up. If
> you increased it for the peak output of the PT, it would be down around 40
> bps which would reap havoc with the electrical. As a matter of fact, that
> .08uF size may be a major cause of the alarm system due to the low bps.
> Anyway, you should try the .04uF for giggles (I would try the tap right at
> turn 9).
>
> Take care,
> Bart
>
>
>
> David Rieben wrote:
>> Hi Bart,
>>
>> Well, your calculations are probably pretty close to correct
>> as I have done a bit more "on the fly" tuning and found that I
>> am getting a bit better of an output with the tap point backed
>> off 1 to 1 1/2 turns. As I was stating earlier, it seems that I
>> may have gone a bit large to keep her fettered down with a
>> 120 volt service. I will gradually try to get all of the bugs out
>> and maximize the output. The problem that I am running into
>> is that I am freaking out my alarm system by firing my coil in
>> the garage and will probably have to get the alarm company
>> out here to fix it. I've been able to disconnect the power to
>> the alarm system pad which helps shut her down but I think
>> the damage is already done as it does not function properly
>> when I power it back up. So it looks like I'll have to call
>> the alarm company back out here to fix it ;^( Momma is pretty
>> aggravated about it, too. I've already been through this back
>> during the early days of trying to tune in the Green Monster.
>> I found that if I fire it outside that it does not cause this pro-
>> blem and the same goes for the smaller coil. Also, even with
>> this mid-sized coil, I cannot keep some of the sparks from
>> hitting the ceiling of my garage with the 8 ft. of overhead.
>> I get really nervous about ceiling striking sparks and these
>> also seem to be the ones that were really freaking out the
>> alarm system. As a professional firefighter with nearly 20
>> years under my belt and a previous experience of nearly
>> catching my house on fire from allowing indiscriminate
>> ceiling strikes, I believe my fears are well founded!
>>
>> David
>>
>> PS: I was wondering how you fine tune a primary coil when
>> the tap comes out on one side of the primary and the tap lead
>> itself will act as an extra primary turn and add its own induc-
>> tance to the equation.?
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "bartb" <bartb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> To: "Tesla Coil Mailing List" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
>> Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 10:00 AM
>> Subject: Re: [TCML] First (or maybe 2nd) light on my medium-sized SG coil
>>
>>
>>> Hi David,
>>>
>>> Interesting your at 8.75 turns on the primary. I'm showing you should be
>>> nearer to 6 turns. I tried adjusting a lot of things (top load, coil,
>>> surroundings, etc.. and still end up around 6 turns no matter what).
>>> It's like 30% detuned high on inductance which is pretty extreme.
>>>
>>> Well, if my specs are correct:
>>> Sec = Helical, 6.5" x 28", 22 Awg, 1000 turns.
>>> Pri = Flat, 9"ID, 25"OD, 11 turns, 0.375 tubing.
>>> Top Load = Toroid, 6" x 30"
>>> Cap Size = .08uF
>>>
>>> Even if the above primary is off on the ID an inch or so, it's still
>>> near 6 turns, so I question the 8.75 turn tune point. But anyway, what I
>>> wanted to let you know is that using the 0.04uF cap size is a primary
>>> difference of about 2.6 turns, so regardless, you do have enough primary
>>> to try it out. My static gap comments remain the same regardless of the
>>> 1.5kva power rating (voltage is unchanged, the only thing that changes
>>> is bps).
>>>
>>> Take care,
>>> Bart
>>>
>>> PS; love to see a pic some time of the coil.
>>>
>>> David Rieben wrote:
>>>> Hi Bart,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, you've pretty much confirmed what I pretty much already knew :^)\
>>>> 80 nFd is a big honking capacitor for a 120 volt fired coil, bar none.
>>>> I do have the option to go to 40 nFd though, since my primary cap is
>>>> just (2) paralleled .04 ufd, 40 kV units. However, I am already tapped
>>>> at about 8 3/4 turns on my primary coil with a total of just 11
>>>> available
>>>> turns so I'm not 100% sure that I would have enough primary coil
>>>> turns available to tune in with a 40 nFd. cap. I do know that the
>>>> inductance does tend to increase as the square of the number of
>>>> turns, though, so 11 turns may still just get me in under the wire
>>>> with a 40 nFd primary cap.
>>>>
>>>> No, my PT is only rated at 1.5 kVa @ 30*C, but as you probably
>>>> already know, PTs are generally capable of FAR more output
>>>> than their nameplate rating suggests for relatively short runs in Tesla
>>>> coil service. Mine weighs about 95 lbs. I wouldn't mind actually
>>>> getting my hands on a 5 kVA rated PT, though ;^)
>>>>
>>>> My topload is a homemade 6"x30" corregated aluminum duct
>>>> toroid that's covered in aluminum tape to add to its rigidity.
>>>>
>>>> David Rieben
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "bartb" <bartb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> To: "Tesla Coil Mailing List" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:46 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [TCML] First (or maybe 2nd) light on my medium-sized SG
>>>> coil
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi David,
>>>>>
>>>>> I got a chance tonight to take a closer look at your specs. I assume
>>>>> your PT is in the 5kva range? BTW, what's the top load?
>>>>>
>>>>> Your total gap distance is kind of low causing the gap to fire early
>>>>> as based on a credit card width of 28 mils (I measured one of my own),
>>>>> so the total gap is about 0.2". The gap should be firing at about 65
>>>>> to 70% of a 120Vac source. I personally would have set the total gap
>>>>> to be 0.35" in your case (50 mils between each electrode). This would
>>>>> allow the gap to arc at near the 140 Vac available with the variac.
>>>>> But at 140 Vac setting, you will have nearly 50 amp spikes occurring
>>>>> on the line. With 20A service, you don't want to go over 2500 VA. This
>>>>> forces you to run at 1/2 power (or less) and in your case, your
>>>>> breakers are forcing this.
>>>>>
>>>>> As DC mentioned, you could parallel a couple 120V sources (which is
>>>>> not a bad idea). Just because the PT is setup for 120V, doesn't mean
>>>>> it should go over 2500 VA on a single source (and it is certainly
>>>>> capable in TC service). The cap is large. Reducing it only slightly
>>>>> would make things worse (I think your transformer resonance is 65nF).
>>>>> You could go to 40nF and run STR however. These smaller caps can have
>>>>> big sparks also. My cap size is 4.3 times smaller than yours and my
>>>>> sparks are longer! Go figure.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's one thing to have a 120V source coil. But big caps require power,
>>>>> sparks require power at the bang, and power requires the capability of
>>>>> the circuit it's sourcing power from. This coil can do so much better,
>>>>> but it is limited by the source. You'll have to run at a lower power,
>>>>> consider something like DC suggested, or lower that cap size. I think
>>>>> it's just too much transformer power and cap size for the 120V line.
>>>>>
>>>>> I run a 200mA 120V transformer for the small coil using an 18.5nF cap
>>>>> size. But as I said, I watch the current, I keep my feelers out for
>>>>> wire heating, and those type of things. I'm required to use some
>>>>> common sense considering the house 120V 20A breakers and I tend to
>>>>> ride the edge. Your PT is even more capable at 350mA current and it's
>>>>> using an 80nF cap size!
>>>>>
>>>>> Take care,
>>>>> Bart
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> David Rieben wrote:
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have finally gotten my mid-sized SG coil project up and running
>>>>>> A quick rough-up of the specs are about 28" of #22 AWG magnet
>>>>>> wire wound on a 6" ID (6.5" OD) white PVC pipe for the secondary
>>>>>> coil. The primary is 11 turns of 3/8" copper tubing wound in the
>>>>>> classic Archemdian spiral with between 3/8" and 1/2" spacing be-
>>>>>> tween each turn and the outermost turn has about a 12.5" radius
>>>>>> (25"diameter). After initial tuning, the primary has been tapped at
>>>>>> approx. 8 3/4 turns. The transformer is a 120:1 GE potential trans-
>>>>>> former (14,400 volt output). Ballasting was origianlly going to be
>>>>>> via a surplus saturable reactor that was rated at 12 kVA and was
>>>>>> origi-
>>>>>> nally designed to run a bombarder and thus control 240 volts.
>>>>>> Naturally,
>>>>>> I assumed that it shouldn't have any trouble holding the reigns on
>>>>>> 120 volts input to a PT. However, it seemd that I was having a fer-
>>>>>> roresonant issue with the saturable reactor in this setup and I was
>>>>>> pretty quickly tripping the 20 amp panel breaker with only about
>>>>>> 50 on the dial of the 22 amp Staco variac. The variac would also
>>>>>> start to make that heaving and humming sound with the start of the SG
>>>>>> firing, like it was almost dead shorting.
>>>>>> So I removed the sat-reactor and replaced it with (2) MOTs with
>>>>>> their seconadries shorted and their primaries in parallel to each
>>>>>> other and of course in series with the 120 volt input to the PT. This
>>>>>> does seem to offer better current control although it still seems to
>>>>>> start rocking with Staco variac set at 50 to 60 on the dial (very
>>>>>> fre-
>>>>>> quent 50 to 60" strikes to my tool cabinet in the garage). The MOTs
>>>>>> do tend to get warm pretty quickly running like this though and I
>>>>>> haven't had a chance to pull it outside to "pull the ears back on
>>>>>> her" since I am confined for space inside of my garage and the arcs
>>>>>> start hitting the ceiling
>>>>>> if I try to go beyond this (fire hazard, already been there, done
>>>>>> that) < :^O
>>>>>> I don't have any metering on this coil's control panel and the Staco
>>>>>> variac IS the control panel at this time. Therefore I'm not really
>>>>>> sure
>>>>>> just how much current that it is pulling but I can tell that it is up
>>>>>> there a bit. I have at least stopped tripping the 20 amps panel
>>>>>> breaker since replacing the sat-reactor with the MOTs, though.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> O yea, I forgot to mention that the SG is a simple stationary RQ
>>>>>> style copper tube gap with (8) 1" diameter x 6" long copper pipe
>>>>>> segments and the resultant 7 gaps each spaced by the thickness
>>>>>> of a credit card. The primary cap is (2) paralleled RFI recon mica
>>>>>> pulse capacitors, each rated at 0.04 uFd @ 40 kV for a total pri-
>>>>>> mary C of 0.08 uFd. The topload is a homemade 6" x 30" toroid
>>>>>> made from two 8 ft. lengths (when fully streched out) of 6" dryer
>>>>>> duct. Because of the relatively large primary C, I have found that
>>>>>> the output is smoother when I short about 2 of the 7 gaps in the
>>>>>> RQ stationary SG. The gap will start "spitting" with the variac
>>>>>> is turned to around 30 on the dial instead of 45 or 50 and it makes
>>>>>> for smoother operation. I almost forgot to mention the the stationary
>>>>>> SG is forced air cooled by a pretty robust fan (likely several hun-
>>>>>> dred CFMs). One thing to note is that I just wired the input to the
>>>>>> fan in parallel with the input to the PT so the more power that I
>>>>>> push into the transformer, the faster that the fan will turn. Would
>>>>>> you all suggest running the fan on a seperate variac or just running
>>>>>> it seperately all together and letting her rip at full speed at all
>>>>>> times
>>>>>> the the coil is running?
>>>>>> I am pleased so far with its performance, but I was wondering if some
>>>>>> PFC caps would help to reduce the current draw a bit
>>>>>> and make sure that I stay within the power draw range of a standard
>>>>>> 20 amp circuit on a 120 volt line? After all, that was the
>>>>>> main reason that I decided to construct this coil in the first place.
>>>>>> I have about (12) each of some 100 uFd, 370 VAC power factor
>>>>>> caps that I could cannibalize from another project that I no longer
>>>>>> have much interest in :^) I'm sure you would love to crunch the
>>>>>> numbers through your Java TC, Bart ;^)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I could post some pics if Hotstreamer still lets you post photos?
>>>>>> I have been concentrating so much on the large pig driven coils
>>>>>> in the last several years that I have just about lost my skills for
>>>>>> building sub-pig sized coils <;^)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> David
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PS - the primary/secondary coupling is set so that the bottom
>>>>>> turnof the secondary coil is just about level with the top of the
>>>>>> pri-
>>>>>> mary coil.
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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