Re: Flat secondary measurements/toroidal primary try as Marx tank

["Tesla list" <tesla-at-pupman-dot-com>]

Original poster: "harvey norris by way of Terry Fritz <twftesla-at-qwest-dot-net>" <harvich-at-yahoo-dot-com>


--- Tesla list <tesla-at-pupman-dot-com> wrote:
> Original poster: "Terry Fritz" <twftesla-at-qwest-dot-net>
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
> At 12:08 PM 2/15/2002 +0000, you wrote:
> >Hi Terry,
> >
> >When it comes to analysing flat spiral
> configurations, the only
> >tricky bit facing us is dealing with the large
> amount of distributed
> >mutual capacitance between primary and secondary. 
> Negligible effect
> >in a flat-primary/helical-solenoid TC, but for
> flat-pri/flat-sec we
> >will need an additional coupling matrix in the
> equations for the
> >dual resonator.  This is a non-trivial change, so
> can we focus on
> >just the solitary flat secondary for now?
> 
> It is interesting that we always assume the primary
> to secondary energy
> transfer in Tesla coils is through inductive
> coupling.   However,
> capacitance can also have the same energy transfer
> effect and these flat
> coils would tend to exploit that.  I am not sure
> what the relative
> magnitudes of inductive and capacitive coupling
> would be in a coil.  If
> inductive is 99.9% and capacitive is 0.1%, then
> maybe it is simply not a
> concern in any case.  But if it is 90% 10% or
> something like that, it may
> be a big deal.  I would guess that the primary to
> secondary coupling could
> still be adjusted easily by varying the spacing 'if'
> there were far higher
> and significant capacitive coupling involved in the
> flat secondary case.

Hi Terry, I hope to soon be trying this design that
incorporates the "supposed lack of mutual inductance"
between a torroidal primary and a spiral secondary as
shown at
 Toroidal bifilar primary/bifilar spiral secondary 
http://groups.yahoo-dot-com/group/teslafy/files/ALT/Dsc00027.jpg
The primaries themselves are made in reversed
windings, where 35 ft of Radio Shack 10 AWG was an
excessive amount to be using. This is wound in a
bifilar manner indentical to that of a center tap
secondary. The arc gap will be in the center of the
primary windings. Each bifilar primary will be given a
capacity of 7.5 nf for starting tests. When the arc
gap fires it should see the mutual inductance of the
primaries as if it were the 22.8 uh displayed here.
Because the primary windings are themselves bifilar
the outside beginning and ending points of the bifilar
winds are themselves directly attached to the high
voltage NST connections where at the point of arcing
the 7.5 nf capacities in series with that L(half)
consists of one half of a oppositely phased LC series
quantity. I have named this a Marx tank, and had
experience with successful operation of these voltage
doubling arc gaps with 480 hz  alternator operation
via 10 kva pole pig. I will also be posting some work
with ferroresonant 480 hz circuits,(today on TRG list
linked below) and how the impedance of those inductive
choke circuits of 1/3 henry also show a estimated
40-50 % higher impendance than the reactance laws
show. A ferroresonant circuit tuning attempt then must
be based on ACTUAL reactance amperage measurements,
rather than formula derived valuwes, when the C values
for resonance are chosen. These factors were also the
problems encountered with tuning the massive 60 henry
induction coils, where their measured impedances
actually deviate far past what calculations assume
them to be.

But here in the operation the Marx system  will charge
two capacities of 7.35 nf parallel prior to arc gap
firing. Thus it charges these capacities in opposite
polarities by the caps direct line connection to the
opposite potential, where similar to the voltage
doubling made by bifilar center tapped secondaries of
the standard transformer, there is also a voltage
doubling taking place at arc gap, because these are
charged 180 out of phase with an open gap reactance
consumption dictated by 14.7 nf. However when they are
disharged only 7.35 nf in series then acts as half
that capacity, or 3.675 nf, which in correspondence
with the noted 22.8 uf as the expected mutual
inductance between bifilar primaries, should establish
a desired 550,000 hz oscillation.

Now the standing waves or naturally resonant frequency
of a dual return wind 100 ft spirals have already been
measured at 550,000 hz, so tuning can begin from this
point. However the actual bifilar measurements were
not made for that case, but about a 25 % reduction in
standing waves on 4 layer spirals of 50 ft(200 ft
total) were noted. Thus we can assume that operation
may be better at lower than 550,000 hz.

This is made by complications brought upon by the fact
that the secondary spirals themselves are not true
bifilar coils, thus to use them in a bifilar fashion
on the secondary application, they must use opposite
bases of voltage rise, meaning one (spiral half)coil
can be grounded from the outside lead, and conversely
the other from the inside, thus bidirectional standing
waves on the same dual spiral geometry will have been
accomplished. This then should also show a chance to
theorize how to better combine these spirals in  space
for effective use. Thus here although it is known that
each 50 ft spiral standing wave is the high frequency
of 1 mg hz,10^6 hz, the fact that they are being
interacted together in a bipolar fashion to produce a
collective mutual induction of roughly 4 times the
initial measurement, this has the consequence of
lowering each spirals resonant frequency itself, and
each of those spirals themselves may have small
resonant frequency differences on account of where the
high voltage is extracted on the spiral with respect
to its interwinding voltage, where it is expected that
a high voltage terminal from an inner spiral winding
will be more effective than that of an outer.

I would suppose some TC coil experts are shaking their
heads here with my unconventional approach of using
toroidal primaries in bifilar fashion, and then to
expect results with  spiral secondaries such as these.
The fact of the matter is that even though it might
not recieve induction from the primary,WE CAN STILL
MAKE A FORCED SECONDARY OSCILLATION VIA BIPOLAR OUDIN
CONNECTIONS TO SECONDARY BASES.

However I would suspect that the system WILL recieve
induction, without the Oudin modification. This is
because the same idea employed in the Marx Tank has
been employed with the 60 henry coils in 60 hz
resonance, where when these L and C quantities are
arranged in 180 phased series resonances, TO THE
ACTUAL SOURCE FREQUENCY, the same type of arc gap can
be set up, and recieving coils set up around that
system clearly show reception in the longitudinal
mode, where at the equatorial plane between the coil
systems their is a cancellation of conventionally
derived rf, whereby turning the coil in 90 degrees to
flux change by magnetic fields will then record flux
change in the incorrect orientation. Thus here the
same king of Marx tank arc gap should be viewed as the
Longitudinal RF emmittor, and the secondary spirals as
orthogally wound coil receviers that will only recieve
induction in mode from that kind of arc gap.

In fact it may be that conventional tesla tank
circuits may emit rf in this longitudinal mode,
meaning that they would also convey this sort of 3
dimensionally polarized wave, versus the conventional
2 dimensionally polarized transverse wave as
understood. In any case if the proper resonance
frequency for the primary circuit needs to be lowered,
that will mean that more capacity needs to be added.

I consider the benefit of the Marx tank set up to be
that 4 times more input(by 4 fold increased capacitive
reactance consumption) can be obtained for the same
capacity  that would be used in a conventional tesla
tank circuit.  Additionally the arc is no longer
directly shunted by the NST secondaries, thus the
primaries themselves may act as rf filters intervening
the arc on both sides of polarity. Additionally twice
the voltage at gap, with 4 timwes less capacity avails
this method as an arc driven Marx type Tank disharge.
However this will be the first 60hz testing of the
unproven concept. According to the fact that I am
merely tuning two circuits to the same frequency, and
allowing for an orthogonal flux reaction to exhibit
itself on the spirals better explains then how spirals
may be better recievers of longitudinal vibrations
themselves, and also whether it is specifically this
type of bipolar voltage application  at primary arc
gap that is unique for producing this longitudinal rf.

This has long been a theory of mine, so I will be
anxious to report back on these testings to indicate
whether longitudinal rf has more CONCRETE
descriptions, rather than the more vague theorizing
that goes on about the subject.

Sincerely Harvey D Norris


> Perfectly fine to do just the flat secondary now to
> see where we are going.
>  When we get it all going and measurments start to
> come in, we can see
> where to go from there.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 	Terry
> 
> 


=====
Tesla Research Group; Pioneering the Applications of Interphasal Resonances
http://groups.yahoo-dot-com/group/teslafy/

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