Re: E-Tesla 6.11 strange prediction

Original poster: "Barton B. Anderson by way of Terry Fritz <twftesla-at-qwest-dot-net>" <tesla123-at-pacbell-dot-net>

Hi John,

I agree with Terry that 57.3% is correct. The stacked toroid test I did a
couple
weeks ago showed the about 50%. Also, moving the toroids apart (15 plus inches)
caused negligible change.

Bart

Tesla list wrote:

> Original poster: "Terry Fritz" <twftesla-at-qwest-dot-net>
>
> Hi John,
>
> I think the 57.3% is indeed correct.  Look at the picture of Matt's coil at:
>
> http://hot-streamer-dot-com/temp/MattD1.gif
>
> The difference between his and most systems is that he has two terminals.
>
> The terminals are right over and under each other.  This vastly reduces
> their individucal free space capacitance's since they are right next to
> each other.  The energy stored between the two toroids is about zero so the
> effective capacitance is far less than if they were significantly far
> apart.  This is an advantage of E-Tesla6 in that it figures these nasty
> situations out :-))
>
> Hopefully Matt will be able to fine the true frequency so we can see how
> close the predictions are.  I am putting my bets on 287253.72 Hz :-))
>
> Cheers,
>
>         Terry
>
> At 01:34 PM 5/20/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> >Terry, Matt, All -
> >
> >I did a check on Matt's coil using E-Tesla6 and found the toroid capacitance
> >reduction to be 57.3% compared to the approximate 20% reduction that
> >E-Tesla6 showed for other coils. Is this correct?
> >
> >The basic resonance equation is
> >     Fr = 1/(6.283 sqrt(LsCs))
> >For Matt's coil Fr = 287730 hz    Ls = 13.76 mh
> >
> >This gives Cs = 22.24 ph   Cs = Ctor + Ccoil
> >
> >The Medhurst equation gives Ccoil = 8.14 ph
> >for a 2.1 rad and 21.16 Lgt secondary coil.
> >The coil self capacity (Ccoil) can also be found with the JHCTES program
> >without using calcs.
> >
> >The effective capacitance of the toroids on the secondary coil is
> >     Ceff = Cs - Ccoil  = 22.24 - 8.14 = 14.1 pf (Ceff)
> >
> >The isotropic (free space) capacitance of the toroids can be found by the
> >equations shown on my web site (Secondary Terminal) or by the Sphere/Toroid
> >graph I show in my books.
> >     Toroid #1  3.25 x 11.25 (OA) = 13.00 pf
> >     Toroid #2  4.25 x 18.00 (OA) = 20.00 pf
> >     Total isotropic capacitance  = 33.00 pf (Ctot)
> >
> >The percent of capacitance reduction for the toroids when placed on the the
> >secondary coil is
> >     % Reduction = (Ctot - Ceff)100/Ctot
> >                 = (33.00 - 14.1)100/33.00 = 57.3%
> >
> >This 57.3% reduction is much greater than the approx 20% found by E-Tesla6
> >for other coils.
> >
> >It will be interesting to see what the actual resonant frequency tests show.
> >There should be two types of res freq tests.
> >
> >    Test #1  Low test current in sec coil by feeding the coil at the bottom
> >with a function generator. The res freq is found with a freq counter.
> >
> >     Test #2  High current in sec coil by operating TC at high voltage but
> >with only corona output. The res freq is determined using a storage scope
> >and Terry antenna probe. This res freq should be lower then in Test #1.
> >
> >
> >John Couture
> >
> >-----------------------------
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Tesla list [mailto:tesla-at-pupman-dot-com]
> >Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 4:37 PM
> >To: tesla-at-pupman-dot-com
> >Subject: Re: E-Tesla 6.11 strange prediction
> >
> >
> >Original poster: "Terry Fritz" <twftesla-at-qwest-dot-net>
> >
> >Hi Matt,
> >
> >E-Tesla6 does a lot of rounding and scale fitting to improve accuracy with
> >lower grid sizes.  In other words, it "jiggles" the data a bit to give the
> >best results.  However, that causes some little discontinuities in tests
> >like you are doing here.  If the program did not do this, there would be
> >far greater error.  I ran a diagnostic plot just to check for basic
> >dimensions and such and all seemed fine:
> >
> >http://hot-streamer-dot-com/temp/MattD1.gif
> >
> >The only way around this is to uses a higher grid size (longer time...) or
> >take the data you have and draw a smoother curve through it.  The rough
> >error here is about 4% which is a bit higher than I would expect.  It
> >really is also possible that there is some "real" discontinuity too, but I
> >sort of doubt it here since the data seems so well behaved otherwise.  I
> >ran your data that you gave with a 200 grid size and got the following:
> >
> >C=22.23451 F=287737.94
> >
> >With a 400 grid size (it is raining here too :-)):
> >
> >C=22.30953  F=287253.72
> >
> >It would be especially interesting to compare this data to your actual
> >measurements!
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >       Terry
> >
> >
> >At 04:26 PM 5/19/2001 -0400, you wrote:
> >>Hi Terry, All!
> >>While waiting for the rain to stop (4 days now) I tried doing some
> >"what-ifs"
> >>with the E-Tesla 6.11 program in which I raised and lowered the primary
> >coil,
> >>keeping all else the same. There is a discontinuity at 19.75" that I cannot
> >>explain. Is this a critical point in reality, or is it a computational
> >>anomaly caused by the finite math of the CPU?
> >>        It will take a few days after the rain stops for the Lab (garage)
> >>floor to dry out before I can take measurements.
> >>Primary Cap.Calc Fres Calc
> >>in.         pF                     kHz
> >>16.50 22.23451 287.737
> >>17.50 22.32667 287.143
> >>18.50 22.43735 286.434
> >>19.50 22.55733 285.669
> >>19.70 22.55771 285.669
> >>19.75 22.55710 285.669
> >>19.80 24.25782 275.477
> >>19.90 24.25782 275.477
> >>20.00 24.25782 275.477
> >>20.50 24.29766 275.251
> >>21.50 24.66628 273.186
> >>22.50 24.79134 272.496
> >>23.50 24.96715 271.535
> >>24.50 25.26754 269.916
> >>25.50 25.60428 268.136
> >>26.50 25.96334 266.275
> >>Here is the other data from one run:
> >>E-TESLA  V6.11C  November 21, 2000
> >>
> >>Grid Size = 200.000000
> >>Scale Multiplier = 1.000000
> >>Terminated Coil
> >>Ceiling Distance = 96.000000
> >>Wall Distance = 48.000000
> >>Primary Height (Inner Turn) = 16.500000
> >>Primary Inner Diameter = 6.375000
> >>Primary Outer Diameter = 24.375000
> >>Primary Height (Outer Turn) = 16.500000
> >>Strike Rail Height = 25.000000
> >>Strike Rail Diameter = 30.000000
> >>Secondary Base Height = 25.000000
> >>Secondary Diameter = 4.280000
> >>Secondary Length = 21.160000
> >>Secondary Inductance (mH) = 13.760000
> >>Terminal-1 Height (center) = 51.799999
> >>Terminal-1 Cord Diameter = 3.250000
> >>Terminal-1 C-C Diameter (toroid only)= 8.000000
> >>Terminal-2 Height (center) = 55.400002
> >>Terminal-2 Cord Diameter = 4.250000
> >>Terminal-2 C-C Diameter (toroid only)= 13.750000
> >>Top Voltage = 360.000000
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>Matt D.
> >>
> >
> >