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Re: Capacitor charge, were is it?

Tesla List wrote:
> 
> >From music-at-triumf.caTue Nov  5 22:54:30 1996
> Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 13:49:13 PST
> From: "Fred W. Bach, TRIUMF Operations" <music-at-triumf.ca>
> To: tesla-at-pupman-dot-com
> Cc: music-at-triumf.ca
> Subject: Re: Capacitor charge, were is it?
> Big snip

  The air molecules are
>    electrically  'sprung', having their electron orbits distorted but
>    not disrupted.  Shoving another spring under the weight takes no net
>    energy if we recover the energy that the outgoing spring gives up.
>    So it is with letting in perfectly dry clean non-ionized air into
>    an air capacitor - it should NOT disturb the charge on the
>    capacitor, as I see it.
> 
>    So this would be a good test of my theory, Richard.  Has anybody
>    actually ever done this experiment *correctly*?  Fresh air is
>    totally useless here, as it is loaded with ions and cannot be used
>    for this experiment.  As a matter of fact, as warm-blooded
>    oxygen-breathing mammals, we all have built into our cells an
>    O2-minus ion transport system.  This is one reason why fresh air
>    (and air from Tesla Coils) kills bugs (they lack this
>    bio-mechanism) and oxidizes odours.  Pulling off the plug on an
>    electroscope is anything but a fair test, IMHO.


> 
>    So am I totally out to lunch, or what?
> 
>  Fred W. Bach ,    Operations Group        | Internet: music-at-triumf.ca
>  TRIUMF (TRI-University Meson Facility)    | Voice:  604-222-1047 loc 6327/7333
>  4004 WESBROOK MALL, UBC CAMPUS            | FAX:    604-222-1074
>  University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., CANADA   V6T 2A3

Fred ,

I would agree that absolutely dry de-ionized air merely introduced or 
mixed with the inside air would never discharge the electroscope or 
dosimeter.  Too bad this stuff doesn't exist on planet earth without 
man's intervention.  The charge within the electroscope or or the 
dosimeter is retained by the air molecules only at the interfacial point 
of the metal and the air.  The great volume of air in the vessel is not 
charged!  Coulombic forces hold these interfacial molecules tightly to 
the metal as separated charge is wont to do.  A lot of physical force or 
electrical neutralization of the thin layer of air at this junction would 
be required to dirupt or move this charge.  Very high speed air would do 
this, dry or not.   All that would be necessary is to overcome the 
coulombic force.  At molecular ranges this can be tremendous!

A neat experiment which is isultrative of this interfacial nature of 
charge retention of dielectrics is to insert three pieces of mylar in a 
disectable capacitor.  Charge it.  (I've done this by the way)

Now disect the capacitor.  pass all of the sheets around the room.  roll 
em up, stomp on them, etc.  Now gather them up.  Take the top sheet and 
reassemble the capacitor with this sheet only.  Discharge it.  POW!  
Now take the bottom sheet and do the same. POW!  Now the middle 
sheet...Zippo, goose egg, zilch!  Charge is still 100% retained by the 
dielectric but only at the outer layers where the differing dielectric 
constants are found and not within the bulk dielectric.  The charge is 
there regardless of the presence of a metal plate.

  This is true in the vacuum of space, in liquids or solids.  The vacuum 
seems to form the "tightest" interfacial bond. (though charge energy per 
unit space is very low)  So tight, in fact, that it looks as if the metal 
is indeed charged.  Gases are next due to the intimacy of contact and 
action of coulombic forces.  Liquids are borderline between hard bound 
solids and gases.  Solids are the highest dielectric constatnt items, and 
can retain high energies in very small areas of space.  The charge 
retained is much greater though its bond to the surface of the 
oppositional dielectric material is more loose due to necessarily poor 
contact and thus weakend coulombic forces.

Richard Hull, TCBOR