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Re: engineers and scientists was [TCML] Wireless Transmission Theory



Jim Lux wrote:
Obviously, it's not a Manichean thing with one or the other, more of a continuum, but a bimodal one.
Its interesting you invoke the term "Manichean", alluding to a (false) dual-dichotomy of mind vs. matter, and understanding vs. doing. The "Analytic-Synthetic Dichotomy" is a philosophical issue I suspect won't be settled until the nature of consciousness and free-will are better known.

Every "living" thing must sense-decide-act, or ask and answer the three questions, "where am I, what should I do, how can I know". Many paramecium and bacteria are excellent scientists and engineers.
However.. Scientists are driven by wanting to understand. Engineers are driven by wanting to do. The classic scientist might do experiments to better understand, but the goal is the understanding, not the doing the experiments.
A scientist, Einstein for instance, doing a "thought experiment" is indeed doing an experiment. When I simulate a circuit, or even consider one, it is a matter of effort bringing about change. And I suspect we can be reasonably certain what goes on in our brains isn't so different than what we've taught our computers and graphic tools to help us do. So again I think this is a false-distinction; the scientist and engineer are about the same business of living with different tools and ends.
The engineer strives to do something, typically requiring some understanding, but there are lots of engineers who work totally empirically.
I suspect most of what the "Mythbusters" do could easily be calculated and are simply excuses to blow up and brake stuff. Which speaks to motivation, within the realm of culture, politics and business. Perhaps its better to use an information-model based on content, media and presentation. Yet again, and especially with computing, we can hardly separate and focus on content (science-principles) apart from media (calculation-tools), or media (computers) apart from content (programming and models).

I'll make a concrete distinction; /the good/. The purpose for which the science or engineering is done. The motivation isn't about reasoning, motivation is a priori. If we weren't motivated to live, we wouldn't be thinking, we wouldn't be calculating or building. Motivation is an organic, chemical action of certain "living" things in the universe. I think many of us have found our motivations, or what turns us on, changes as we age. Its probably more than just the novelty wearing off too.

Although, to me, what made engineering engineering (around the time of the Renaissance) was the change from doing it as a craft (do what worked before) was the use of a theoretical model to guide what you do next. For instance, I'm pretty impressed by what Roman engineers did 2000 years ago (aqueducts, bridges, the Pantheon), but I'm not totally convinced it was engineering in the modern sense.
There was an interesting program on Cspan, http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=9038&SectionName=History&PlayMedia=No
William Noel, Co-author, "The Archimedes Codex"

Archimedes was constructing mathematical proofs, with applications in mechanics 200BC. The geometry we call science, and the mechanics engineering. But these are our facile linguistic distinctions that belong more to the realm of career-paths than nature. I suspect a visiting Martian might not make such distinctions regarding the "engineering" done by various species here, and the "science" of the patters nature decorates itself with.

Might as well not bother considering whether its a product of a deliberate will because that begs the question are we/nature the product of a deliberate will. Since the universe includes time, that will cannot be the product of consciousness as we understand it, as creatures who's consciousness thought is incomplete and constrained by a thermodynamic arrow of time.
I don't know that pyramid architects actually figured this out by analyzing the forces, or by just doing some empirical experiments.
I suspect the pyramids engineers were priests, that were either rewarded or executed by the Pharaohs for either doing well or ill. More likely, that practical engineering skill was developed for constructing forts and siege weapons.

And the real purpose of the pyramids was far more practical than religious; keep all the young men doing busy-work so they stayed in a militaristic, organized culture and didn't form street-gangs and setoff to loot and pillage and take over. And no doubt the monuments had an awe-inspiring effect on foreign traders (spys). And tomb and ancestor-worship would also serve to maintain the political and economic status-quo; the nobility had a vested interest in maintaining the class-structure and public works. We have our pyramids.
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