Re: [TCML] First (or maybe 2nd) light on my medium-sized SG coil

["DC Cox" <resonance@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

The tap lead should be short such that it adds only minimal inductance to
the LC tank circuit.  Any additional inductance in the tank circuit circuit
is undesireable as inductance always acts to impede the current max peaks,
and we need to keep these max curents high as the magnetic field coupling
the sec coil depends on high current to produce powerful magnetic fields
that contain a lot of energy.

You hit upon something that is very dangerous to any that runs a large coil
in their garage.  The greatest danger is that if a spark strikes a wall,
travels thru the wall seeking a ground source such as a wire, the dissipated
energy within the wall construction materials may not lead to an immediate
fire which can be detected and extinguished.  The greatest danger is the
smoldering of construction materials which continues to smolder and
eventually breaks out into a fire a few hours after you have retired for the
evening.

You could simple string a grid of 12 inch spacing of enameled magnet wire
(sand off the enamel) at intervals along an adjacent wall such that any
errant sparks will strike the grounded magnet wire grid and not go into your
wall where it could cause a fire hours later.  A 1/2 of a dozen wires in
nearby areas gives the spark a definite ground attachment point and will
prevent fires from forming as you snooze.  Of course, this does not always
occur but it only has to happen once to give you a real bad hair day.

An example I can recall from recent memory is in the photos in Dan
McCauley's book on soild state resonance transformers.  The sparks striking
the wall could have been seeking grounds in construction materials which
could several hours later burst into a large house fire.  Again, this did
not occur, but it's like driving on bald tires.  A blowout (or flameup) only
has to happen once to give you a bad day.  This is an extreme example of
exactly what NOT to do under any circumstances.  Use ground wires on the
interior surface of the wall or do it outside ---- NEVER INSIDE YOUR
HOME!  If you insurance company ever saw a photo of this occuring you could
be cancelled immediately!

Safety first and happy coiling!

Regards,

Dr. Resonance




On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 1:52 PM, David Rieben <drieben@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Hi Bart,
>
> Well, your calculations are probably pretty close to correct
> as I have done a bit more "on the fly" tuning and found that I
> am getting a bit better of an output with the tap point backed
> off 1 to 1 1/2 turns. As I was stating earlier, it seems that I
> may have gone a bit large to keep her fettered down with a
> 120 volt service. I will gradually try to get all of the bugs out
> and maximize the output. The problem that I am running into
> is that I am freaking out my alarm system by firing my coil in
> the garage and will probably have to get the alarm company
> out here to fix it. I've been able to disconnect the power to
> the alarm system pad which helps shut her down but I think
> the damage is already done as it does not function properly
> when I power it back up. So it looks like I'll have to call
> the alarm company back out here to fix it ;^( Momma is pretty
> aggravated about it, too.  I've already been through this back
> during the early days of trying to tune in the Green Monster.
> I found that if I fire it outside that it does not cause this pro-
> blem and the same goes for the smaller coil. Also, even with
> this mid-sized coil, I cannot keep some of the sparks from
> hitting the ceiling of my garage with the 8 ft. of overhead.
> I get really nervous about ceiling striking sparks and these
> also seem to be the ones that were really freaking out the
> alarm system. As a professional firefighter with nearly 20
> years under my belt and a previous experience of nearly
> catching my house on fire from allowing indiscriminate
> ceiling strikes, I believe my fears are well founded!
>
> David
>
> PS: I was wondering how you fine tune a primary coil when
> the tap comes out on one side of the primary and the tap lead
> itself will act as an extra primary turn and add its own induc-
> tance to the equation.?
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "bartb" <bartb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Tesla Coil Mailing List" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 10:00 AM
>
> Subject: Re: [TCML] First (or maybe 2nd) light on my medium-sized SG coil
>
>
> Hi David,
> >
> > Interesting your at 8.75 turns on the primary. I'm showing you should be
> > nearer to 6 turns. I tried adjusting a lot of things (top load, coil,
> > surroundings, etc.. and still end up around 6 turns no matter what). It's
> > like 30% detuned high on inductance which is pretty extreme.
> >
> > Well, if my specs are correct:
> > Sec = Helical, 6.5" x 28", 22 Awg, 1000 turns.
> > Pri = Flat, 9"ID, 25"OD, 11 turns, 0.375 tubing.
> > Top Load = Toroid, 6" x 30"
> > Cap Size = .08uF
> >
> > Even if the above primary is off on the ID an inch or so, it's still
> > near 6 turns, so I question the 8.75 turn tune point. But anyway, what I
> > wanted to let you know is that using the 0.04uF cap size is a primary
> > difference of about 2.6 turns, so regardless, you do have enough primary to
> > try it out. My static gap comments remain the same regardless of the 1.5kva
> > power rating (voltage is unchanged, the only thing that changes is bps).
> >
> > Take care,
> > Bart
> >
> > PS; love to see a pic some time of the coil.
> >
> > David Rieben wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Bart,
> > >
> > > Yes, you've pretty much confirmed what I pretty much already knew :^)\
> > > 80 nFd is a big honking capacitor for a 120 volt fired coil, bar none.
> > > I do have the option to go to 40 nFd though, since my primary cap is
> > > just (2) paralleled .04 ufd, 40 kV units. However, I am already tapped
> > > at about 8 3/4 turns on my primary coil with a total of just 11
> > > available
> > > turns so I'm not 100% sure that I would have enough primary coil
> > > turns available to tune in with a 40 nFd. cap. I do know that the
> > > inductance does tend to increase as the square of the number of
> > > turns, though, so 11 turns may still just get me in under the wire
> > > with a 40 nFd primary cap.
> > >
> > > No, my PT is only rated at 1.5 kVa @ 30*C, but as you probably
> > > already know, PTs are generally capable of FAR more output
> > > than their nameplate rating suggests for relatively short runs in
> > > Tesla
> > > coil service.  Mine weighs about 95 lbs. I wouldn't mind actually
> > > getting my hands on a 5 kVA rated PT, though ;^)
> > >
> > > My topload is a homemade 6"x30" corregated aluminum duct
> > > toroid that's covered in aluminum tape to add to its rigidity.
> > >
> > > David Rieben
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "bartb" <bartb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > To: "Tesla Coil Mailing List" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 8:46 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [TCML] First (or maybe 2nd) light on my medium-sized SG
> > > coil
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi David,
> > > >
> > > > I got a chance tonight to take a closer look at your specs. I assume
> > > > your PT is in the 5kva range? BTW, what's the top load?
> > > >
> > > > Your total gap distance is kind of low causing the gap to fire early
> > > > as based on a credit card width of 28 mils (I measured one of my own), so
> > > > the total gap is about 0.2". The gap should be firing at about 65 to 70% of
> > > > a 120Vac source. I personally would have set the total gap to be 0.35" in
> > > > your case (50 mils between each electrode). This would allow the gap to arc
> > > > at near the 140 Vac available with the variac. But at 140 Vac setting, you
> > > > will have nearly 50 amp spikes occurring on the line. With 20A service, you
> > > > don't want to go over 2500 VA. This forces you to run at 1/2 power (or less)
> > > > and in your case, your breakers are forcing this.
> > > >
> > > > As DC mentioned, you could parallel a couple 120V sources (which is
> > > > not a bad idea). Just because the PT is setup for 120V, doesn't mean it
> > > > should go over 2500 VA on a single source (and it is certainly capable in TC
> > > > service). The cap is large. Reducing it only slightly would make things
> > > > worse (I think your transformer resonance is 65nF). You could go to 40nF and
> > > > run STR however. These smaller caps can have big sparks also. My cap size is
> > > > 4.3 times smaller than yours and my sparks are longer! Go figure.
> > > >
> > > > It's one thing to have a 120V source coil. But big caps require
> > > > power, sparks require power at the bang, and power requires the capability
> > > > of the circuit it's sourcing power from. This coil can do so much better,
> > > > but it is limited by the source. You'll have to run at a lower power,
> > > > consider something like DC suggested, or lower that cap size. I think it's
> > > > just too much transformer power and cap size for the 120V line.
> > > >
> > > > I run a 200mA 120V transformer for the small coil using an 18.5nF
> > > > cap size. But as I said, I watch the current, I keep my feelers out for wire
> > > > heating, and those type of things. I'm required to use some common sense
> > > > considering the house 120V 20A breakers and I tend to ride the edge. Your PT
> > > > is even more capable at 350mA current and it's using an 80nF cap size!
> > > >
> > > > Take care,
> > > > Bart
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > David Rieben wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > I have finally gotten my mid-sized SG coil project up and running
> > > > > A quick rough-up of the specs are about 28" of #22 AWG magnet
> > > > > wire wound on a 6" ID (6.5" OD) white PVC pipe for the secondary
> > > > > coil. The primary is 11 turns of 3/8" copper tubing wound in the classic
> > > > > Archemdian spiral with between 3/8" and 1/2" spacing be-
> > > > > tween each turn and the outermost turn has about a 12.5" radius
> > > > > (25"diameter). After initial tuning, the primary has been tapped
> > > > > at
> > > > > approx. 8 3/4 turns. The transformer is a 120:1 GE potential
> > > > > trans-
> > > > > former (14,400 volt output). Ballasting was origianlly going to be
> > > > > via a surplus saturable reactor that was rated at 12 kVA and was origi-
> > > > > nally designed to run a bombarder and thus control 240 volts.
> > > > > Naturally,
> > > > > I assumed that it shouldn't have any trouble holding the reigns on
> > > > > 120 volts input to a PT. However, it seemd that I was having a
> > > > > fer-
> > > > > roresonant issue with the saturable reactor in this setup and I
> > > > > was
> > > > > pretty quickly tripping the 20 amp panel breaker with only about
> > > > > 50 on the dial of the 22 amp Staco variac. The variac would also
> > > > > start to make that heaving and humming sound with the start of the
> > > > > SG firing, like it was almost dead shorting.
> > > > > So I removed the sat-reactor and replaced it with (2) MOTs with
> > > > > their seconadries shorted and their primaries in parallel to each
> > > > > other and of course in series with the 120 volt input to the PT. This does
> > > > > seem to offer better current control although it still seems to start
> > > > > rocking with Staco variac set at 50 to 60 on the dial (very fre-
> > > > > quent 50 to 60" strikes to my tool cabinet in the garage). The
> > > > > MOTs do tend to get warm pretty quickly running like this though and I
> > > > > haven't had a chance to pull it outside to "pull the ears back on her" since
> > > > > I am confined for space inside of my garage and the arcs start hitting the
> > > > > ceiling
> > > > > if I try to go beyond this (fire hazard, already been there, done
> > > > > that) < :^O
> > > > > I don't have any metering on this coil's control panel and the
> > > > > Staco
> > > > > variac IS the control panel at this time. Therefore I'm not really
> > > > > sure
> > > > > just how much current that it is pulling but I can tell that it is
> > > > > up there a bit. I have at least stopped tripping the 20 amps panel
> > > > > breaker since replacing the sat-reactor with the MOTs, though.
> > > > >
> > > > > O yea, I forgot to mention that the SG is a simple stationary RQ
> > > > > style copper tube gap with (8) 1" diameter x 6" long copper pipe
> > > > > segments and the resultant 7 gaps each spaced by the thickness
> > > > > of a credit card. The primary cap is (2) paralleled RFI recon mica
> > > > > pulse capacitors, each rated at 0.04 uFd @ 40 kV for a total pri-
> > > > > mary C of 0.08 uFd. The topload is a homemade 6" x 30" toroid
> > > > > made from two 8 ft. lengths (when fully streched out) of 6" dryer
> > > > > duct. Because of the relatively large primary C, I have found that
> > > > > the output is smoother when I short about 2 of the 7 gaps in the
> > > > > RQ stationary SG. The gap will start "spitting" with the variac
> > > > > is turned to around 30 on the dial instead of 45 or 50 and it
> > > > > makes
> > > > > for smoother operation. I almost forgot to mention the the
> > > > > stationary
> > > > > SG is forced air cooled by a pretty robust fan (likely several
> > > > > hun-
> > > > > dred CFMs). One thing to note is that I just wired the input to
> > > > > the
> > > > > fan in parallel with the input to the PT so the more power that I
> > > > > push into the transformer, the faster that the fan will turn. Would
> > > > > you all suggest running the fan on a seperate variac or just
> > > > > running it seperately all together and letting her rip at full speed at all
> > > > > times
> > > > > the the coil is running?
> > > > > I am pleased so far with its performance, but I was wondering if
> > > > > some PFC caps would help to reduce the current draw a bit
> > > > > and make sure that I stay within the power draw range of a
> > > > > standard 20 amp circuit on a 120 volt line? After all, that was the
> > > > > main reason that I decided to construct this coil in the first
> > > > > place.
> > > > > I have about (12) each of some 100 uFd, 370 VAC power factor
> > > > > caps that I could cannibalize from another project that I no
> > > > > longer
> > > > > have much interest in :^) I'm sure you would love to crunch the
> > > > > numbers through your Java TC, Bart ;^)
> > > > >
> > > > > I could post some pics if Hotstreamer still lets you post photos?
> > > > > I have been concentrating so much on the large pig driven coils
> > > > > in the last several years that I have just about lost my skills
> > > > > for building sub-pig sized coils <;^)
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > David
> > > > >
> > > > > PS - the primary/secondary coupling is set so that the bottom
> > > > > turnof the secondary coil is just about level with the top of the
> > > > > pri-
> > > > > mary coil.
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