Re: Base current......Re: Tesla Coil RF Transmitter

["Tesla list" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>]

Original poster: "Dmitry (father dest)" <dest@xxxxxxxxxxx>

Hello Dan.

> Original poster: "Dan" <DUllfig@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

> I am going to cautiously disagree with what you are saying. I have
> looked over the websites you pointed me to, and I see a couple of issues.

i`m sorry, but i`m afraid i wouldn`t be able to keep this discussion
skilfully - i`m not familiar with the tssp website - only looked
through it superficially and the level of my theoretical knowledge is
rather poor. you can get exact answers about "fantc" and "tssp"
personally from their authors - these people are on the list.

> 1 -- The tssp website says that it is trying to model real life coils
> in software, and trying to predict them as close as possible.
> Somewhere in there it says the inductance of a resonant coil cannot
> be predicted by lumped element formulas, as the current is not
> uniform along the coil

but i have posted the links to the bare.gif & toroid.gif specially -
without a toroid the current along the coil is nonuniform, but who uses a
coil without toroid? with the one the current along the coil is
uniform - so what`s the problem here?

> 3 -- GeoTC does not seem to be a full implementation of tssp, rather
> a library built on some of the concepts of tssp (their words, not
> mine); therefore, just because tssp may be accurate, does not mean
> GeoTC is accurate. As a matter of fact, since GeoTC calculates top
> load capacitance, and coil inductance, and derives resonant frequency
> from that, it seems it is indeed considering the TC as a lumped
> element circuit, which was disproven by J. & K. Corum.

corum bros, "disproven" - LOL, :-))))))))))))))))
if the coil resonates at its main frequency, then we can replace it
with the equivalent lumped element circuit (if you think it`s not true
- prove it) for Fres calculation. but it`s not follows from this that
we have to use the same model for the current calculation for example!

explain to me please - how _the same program_, that, as you`ve said
use the lumped model, can calculate both the toroid.gif and the bare.gif?

how could we get the bare.gif using lumped element circuit?
if we use a lupmed model for the current calculation - why there`re
present such values as:

"Effective Series Inductance (Les)
Effective Shunt Capacitance (Ces)
Low Frequency Inductance (Ldc)
Low Frequency Capacitance (Cdc)
Energy Storage Inductance (Lee)
Energy Storage Capacitance (Cee)
Total Topload Capacitance (Ctop)"

?
have you ever read what`s written in bare.htm after the words
"Definitions of Inductance and Capacitance as termed above:"?

:-D

> 4 -- one final note: without any sparks comming out the top load, how
> can the current be uniform? for a current to exist, there has to be,
> excuse me for repeating myself, an actual CURRENT! since the top load
> only sees a voltage potential, there can be no current at the top.

but we have not a DC (excuse me for repeating :-D) current, and not DC
voltage at the top - there is AC voltage, so "the top load only sees a
voltage potential" is wrong - the top load sees _alternating_ voltage
potential ;-)

so I=Ctop * dUtop/dt, as usual :-)
btw - how do we get the voltage potential without a current?
C=q/U, so U=q/C, so - there`s a charge in the toroid - right? but
dq/dt=I, and as top load potential is _alternating_, then dU/dt <> 0,
so dq/dt <> 0, so I <> 0.

>  If your software is telling you that the current is evenly distributed,
> there is something wrong with the software...

no way :-) the toroid capacitance is 3 times more than the
self-capacitance of the secondary, so _my coil_ acts as the real lumped
element circuit.


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <mailto:tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>Tesla list
> To: <mailto:tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>tesla@xxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 7:34 PM
> Subject: Re: Base current......Re: Tesla Coil RF Transmitter

> Original poster: "Dmitry (father dest)"
> <<mailto:dest@xxxxxxxxxxx>dest@xxxxxxxxxxx>

> Hello Dan.

>   > Original poster: "Dan"
> <<mailto:DUllfig@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>DUllfig@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

>   > well, let me tell you: if you read Tesla's deposition when he was
>   > being sued by the Marconi corporation, Tesla clearly states that for
>   > "power transmission" he would run his coil in undamped wave mode,
>   > without streamers!

> has i ever said that my values are for the case with a streamers
> present? not at all.

>   > PS.: by the way, are those figures calculated by software, or actual
>   > measurements?

> calculated by software, which is based on the measuring results of
> many real coils :

> 
<http://www.classictesla.com/fantc/fantc.html>http://www.classictesla.com/fantc/fantc.html

>   > the figures could be the result of incorrect modeling
>   > of the software, like if it was treating the circuit as a lumped
>   > element circuit, instead of a resonant one.

> impossible. read this first:
> 
<http://www.abelian.demon.co.uk/tssp/pn1710/>http://www.abelian.demon.co.uk/tssp/pn1710/

> "Examples of voltage and current distribution profiles for Tesla
> secondary coils.

> Example 8: Typical coil with toroid

> The transimpedance is 43K ohms, much higher than the 29K predicted by
> a cosine current profile, and almost equal to the _uniform current_
> value of 45K ohms."

> you may read this if you would be interested in future:
> <http://www.abelian.demon.co.uk/tssp/>http://www.abelian.demon.co.uk/tssp/

> :-D

> btw - here are charts for my coil:

> <http://cis.ru/~dest/bare.GIF>http://cis.ru/~dest/bare.GIF
> http://cis.ru/~dest/toroid.GIF

> i think that "peaks" are present only at inefficient coil, with a
> funny small toroid, or even without one :-)))