# RE: some of the reason why energy and power definitions are confusing

```Original poster: "rb" <randyaz-at-cableone-dot-net>

My point is that you cant disregard time/distance...  Unless Einstein was
wrong, you just cant get there from here! (again, time/distance)

This can be debated ad nauseum...

********
It is my opinion that
energy has nothing to do with time, however with this artificial definition,
joules (energy) = watts * seconds.  With this system the energy unit has
time in it and the power unit doesn't.
********

-----Original Message-----
From: Tesla list [mailto:tesla-at-pupman-dot-com]
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 12:14 PM
To: tesla-at-pupman-dot-com
Subject: Re: some of the reason why energy and power definitions are
confusing

Original poster: "Alfred Erpel" <alfred-at-erpel-dot-com>

[lots o' stuff snippied]

***** sayeth rb *************
In your equation, you were able to remove the time/distance from the
coulomb, but, you didn't account for the time/distance used in defining the
volt.
*****************************

Hi rb,

volts are defined in the basic terms below:

m = meters
kg = kilograms
s = seconds
A = amps
V = volts
W = watts

equation 1}   V = W/A = m^2 * kg / s^3 * A    <------ I copied this from one
of zillions of physics sites on the web stating Amps as a basic and NOT
derived unit.

now consider the following where C = coulombs:

A = C / s  <--------- the definition of an amp

take the definition of volt above (V = W/A = m^2 * kg / s^3 * A ) and
replace A, with (C / s) and do the simple algebra.

Now:

equation 2}   V = m^2 * kg / s^2 * C   <----- simplified version of
equation 1

remember that C = 6.41418 * 10^18 electrons, this is an indivisible quanta.
See how the equation is simpler?  There are no cubed units and none of the
remaining units can be factored out.  Simpler is good.

So, rb, I don't get what your point is.

My point is that energy is irrespective of time and shouldn't be obfuscated
with time units in it.  I can fill a bucket with energy.  It can sit there
indefinitely, energy sitting in a bucket, or the bucket can have a hole in
it.  The rate at which the energy leaks out; energy/time = power.  Yet with
our current system, spoken units of energy have time in them, and the spoken
units of power have time removed from them.  This is just plain
counterintuitive, whacko, and makes people want to head for the woods.

F = farads (measure of capacitance)
H = henrys (measure of inductance)
C = coulombs  ( I know that C = capacitance in other contexts, but that is
not in conflict here, I am never using capacitance in an equation)

equation 3}
F = s^4 * A^2 / m^2 * kg  <---- definition of Farad using A (amps) (SI
system)

equation 4}
H = m^2 * kg / s^2 * A^2  <---- definition of Henry using A (amps) (SI
system)

simplify the above two equations substituting C / s for A.

you get:

F = s^2 * C^2 / m^2 * kg  <------ fourth power of s is now second power!
H = m^2 * kg / C^2        <------ time is totally gone, and there is one
less unit!

Henrys, in reality has no time component!  But not according to the SI
system. (equation 4)

How could this possibly have come to be?  This is my guess; everyone
loves
the near symetry of equations 3 and 4 above. The only way to get that near
symetry is to define Amperes as a basic unit.  After all, Farads and Henrys
are so important to the resonance we all need for our tesla coils and radio
and electromagnetic manipulation in general.  It screams to you that it
should be symetrical.  Well it isn't. To pretend that it is, is a lie.  And
this is irrespective of what the definition of is, is.

They screwed up in 1954.  They need to reconvene and redefine the ampere as
NOT being a basic unit.  All those guys are dead now.  They won't even be
embarrased.

http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/history.html

[quote from the link above is below]
Following an international inquiry by the BIPM, which began in 1948, the
10th CGPM, in 1954, approved the introduction of the ampere, the kelvin and
the candela as base units, respectively, for electric current, thermodynamic
temperature and luminous intensity.

testily,

Al

PS  ------ and while things are being redefined, we need thirteen 28 day
months = 364 days. But Thirtcember would have 29 days so the year could have
365 days except for leap years where Thirtcember has 30 days.  This superior
system will allow you to know which day of the week it is merely by knowing
the date of the month. Also, you just need to memorize the phase of the moon
in the beginning of the year and you will only be 4 days off at the end of