Re: Charge stored in Dielectric? Not really - MISCONCEPTION

["Tesla list" <tesla-at-pupman-dot-com>]

Original poster: "mercurus2000" <mercurus2000-at-cox-dot-net> 

I don't think that would work either, the thing is the voltage on the plate
rise dramatically as they are seperated from each other, so you can have 9
volts on a dissectable capacitor and once you pull them apart you'll have a
potential of around 15,000 volts, so you could still get charge transfer
thro corona if I remember right.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tesla list" <tesla-at-pupman-dot-com>
To: <tesla-at-pupman-dot-com>
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 6:18 PM
Subject: RE: Charge stored in Dielectric? Not really - MISCONCEPTION


 > Original poster: "Luke" <Bluu-at-cox-dot-net>
 >
 > But wait he said one of the experiments was to do exactly as the classic
 > one but at say 500 volts.  If the energy is truly stored in the
 > dielectric it should work for any voltage level.
 >
 > At 500 volts the corona affect he describes should be minimized.  When
 > this is done at 500 volts there is no charge left after reassembling.
 >
 > Forget about the oil and trying to prevent that corona from leaking onto
 > the dielectric.  Why wouldn't it work at 500 volts if the charge was on
 > the dielectric?
 >
 > Luke Galyan
 > Bluu-at-cox-dot-net
 >
 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Tesla list [mailto:tesla-at-pupman-dot-com]
 > Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2004 1:37 PM
 > To: tesla-at-pupman-dot-com
 > Subject: Re: Charge stored in Dielectric? Not really - MISCONCEPTION
 >
 > Original poster: robert & june heidlebaugh <rheidlebaugh-at-desertgate-dot-com>
 >
 >
 > Just an added thought. In Oil you have added a second high dialectric
 > with
 > active browniun movement to desperse and discharge the voltage charge. I
 > question the validity of your conclusion. In air with solid components
 > no
 > large movement is taking place, only a local movement within the
 > dialectric
 > surface this preventing the stored charge from being neutralized. An
 > example
 > is the formation of a lectric where the dialectric is charged as a
 > liquid
 > (wax) and then cooled to a solid before removing the charge voltage. The
 > charge is stored as a perminant electrostatic charge like an "
 > electrostatic
 > magnet" in effect.
 >        Robert   H
 > --
 >
 >
 >   > From: "Tesla list" <tesla-at-pupman-dot-com>
 >   > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:12:56 -0700
 >   > To: tesla-at-pupman-dot-com
 >   > Subject: Charge stored in Dielectric?  Not really - MISCONCEPTION
 >   > Resent-From: tesla-at-pupman-dot-com
 >   > Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:18:47 -0700
 >   >
 >   > Original poster: dhmccauley-at-spacecatlighting-dot-com
 >   >
 >   >> Original poster: "Dr. Resonance" <resonance-at-jvlnet-dot-com>
 >   >>
 >   >>
 >   >> A classic capacitor physics experiment.  Charge a Leyden jar.
 > Remove the
 >   >> plates completely and short them both together and to ground.
 > Reassemble
 >   >> the jar and it delivers it's normal spark.  Charge is stored in the
 >   >> dielectric.  The effect of the plates are completely eliminated in
 > this
 >   >> experiment.
 >   >>
 >   >> Dr. Resonance
 >   >
 >   > Actually, I've been doing a lot of research into this since I last
 > saw this
 >   > effect demonstrated at the Rochester Teslathon and have found this to
 > be a
 >   > misconception.
 >   > I've also tried of few of my own experiments to verify this and to
 > see what
 >   > was really going on.
 >   >
 >   > In the demonstration I saw, a capacitor comprised of a thin
 > dielectric
 >   > separated by two flat aluminum plates was charged via a small flyback
 > supply
 >   > to about 10-20kV.  The charging
 >   > supply was removed and then the capacitor carefully disassembled.
 > The
 >   > dielectric was removed and passed around the room for all to touch,
 > etc...
 >   > and then the capacitor was
 >   > re-assembled.  Upon re-assembling the capacitor, you could once again
 > draw a
 >   > big arc of it proving that the charge of the capacitor was still
 > there and
 >   > it is concluded that
 >   > the dielectric stores the charge all along.  To further prove this,
 > the
 >   > dielectric could be rolled up, mailed across the country, and
 > assembled in a
 >   > separate set of plates and once together,
 >   > again an arc could be reproduced again proving that the charge is
 > indeed
 >   > charged in the dielectric.
 >   >
 >   > However, this is not correct.
 >   >
 >   > What is actually happening is quite complex.  When the two plates of
 > the
 >   > capacitor are moved apart, the total capacitance of the plate
 > capacitor
 >   > drops and as a result, the potential
 >   > difference between the plates increases to enormous levels.  Because
 > of the
 >   > physical arrangement of the two plates, this potential cannot
 > increase
 >   > infinitely and instead it forms
 >   > corona along the outer metal edges of the plates and leaks the excess
 > charge
 >   > into the surrounding air.  This corona (which can be heard during
 > this
 >   > experiment) then allows
 >   > opposite electrical charges to be "sprayed" or "painted" onto both
 > sides of
 >   > the internal dielectric material.  So when you dissassemble this
 > capacitor,
 >   > this corona effect transfers a
 >   > large percentage of the separated charges from the aluminum plates
 > onto the
 >   > dielectric surfaces.  The energy is still there, but its stored as a
 > field
 >   > in the dielectric material.
 >   >
 >   > To further disprove this misconception, i did the two experiments
 > which were
 >   > recommended to me by an old timer friend of mine.
 >   > With a similar set-up, I did the following experiments.
 >   >
 >   > 1.  I repeated the standard experiment.  I had two plates, measuring
 > about
 >   > 6" x 6" and a thin dielectric.  I charged this plate capacitor up to
 > about
 >   > 15kVDC using a small
 >   > EMCO DC-DC High Voltage Power supply.  I completely dissassembled the
 >   > capacitor, removed the dielectric, re-assembled the capacitor, and
 > managed
 >   > to pull a
 >   > nice discharge from this capacitor.
 >   >
 >   > 2.  Now, to prove that the charge isn't stored in the dielectric and
 > is
 >   > actually created by the corona effect on the separation of the metal
 > plates,
 >   > I did the repeated the above
 >   > experiment in a basin of mineral oil.  When performed under oil, the
 > corona
 >   > would be minimal and no "spraying" effect would be present between
 > the
 >   > plates and the dielectric.
 >   > I repeated the experiment, charged the capacitor plates to 15kVDC,
 >   > dissassembled them, removed the dielectric, and then re-assembled
 > them.  I
 >   > tried discharging this
 >   > capacitor now, and there was absolutely nothing.  I repeated this a
 > few
 >   > times and still nothing.
 >   >
 >   > 3.  On the second version of the above experiment, I charged the
 > plates in
 >   > air and dis-assembled them in air.  I then put the capacitor together
 > under
 >   > oil, and voila, as I guessed,
 >   > I could pull a nice discharge from the capacitor.  On the reverse, I
 > charged
 >   > the capacitor under oil, dissassembled it under oil, and then
 > reassembled
 >   > the capacitor in air.  Again,
 >   > as I guessed, there was no discharge.
 >   >
 >   > 4.  On a final experiment, if the energy was indeed stored in the
 > dielectric
 >   > as the Common Misconception goes, then it should hold true no matter
 > what
 >   > the capacitor voltage
 >   > was.  So I repeated the experiments at a variety of low voltage
 > (100VDC,
 >   > 200VDC . . . to about 500VDC)  I charged the capacitors up.  Checked
 > the
 >   > voltage with a multimeter
 >   > to verify charge, and then dissassembled the capacitors. (Again, this
 > was
 >   > done in air)  The capacitors were put together and the multimeter was
 > used
 >   > again to check for any voltage.
 >   > Again, there was no voltage present in that newly assembled
 > capacitor.
 >   > Thinking maybe the internal impedance of the multimeter was
 > discharging the
 >   > capacitor before it could
 >   > take a reading, i switched to an electrostatic meter.  Again, the
 > experiment
 >   > was repeated, and nothing.
 >   >
 >   > So in light of all this, you can clearly see that the charge really
 > isn't
 >   > stored in the dielectric.  It just so happens that when performing
 > the
 >   > dissectable capacitor experiment at
 >   > high voltages that other effects are occuring causing the dielectric
 > to be
 >   > charged up by fringing corona fields created by the increased voltage
 >   > potential as the capacitor plates
 >   > are being separated.
 >   >
 >   > If anyone still doubts this, I challenge you to perform the
 > experiment under
 >   > oil.  If the charge is *indeed* stored in the dielectric, you will be
 > able
 >   > to reproduce this
 >   > dissectable capacitor experiment under oil.
 >   >
 >   >
 >   > Dan
 >   >
 >   >
 >
 >