RE: Repeatability of bang size versus spark length, was what is the practical..

["Tesla list" <tesla-at-pupman-dot-com>]

Original poster: "John H. Couture by way of Terry Fritz <teslalist-at-qwest-dot-net>" <couturejh-at-mgte-dot-com>


Matt D. -

I agree that Tesla coil streamers are a chaotic form of output.  This is why
I advocate that the controlled spark method be used. It does not make sense
to use a chaotic output to rate any kind of electrical device from an
engineering standpoint.

John Couture

---------------------------------


-----Original Message-----
From: Tesla list [mailto:tesla-at-pupman-dot-com]
Sent: Saturday, February 01, 2003 6:54 PM
To: tesla-at-pupman-dot-com
Subject: Re: Repeatability of bang size versus spark length, was what is
the practical..


Original poster: "by way of Terry Fritz <teslalist-at-qwest-dot-net>"
<Mddeming-at-aol-dot-com>

Hi John, John, & All,

         In addition to the macroscopic variables which you mention, a great
part of the variation in streamers is that it is a chaotic process. Not
just in the commonly used sense, but in the physical sense of "a non-linear
dynamical system, critically dependent upon initial conditions."
Microscopic point to point differences in surface temperature, charge
density, surface oxidation, smoothness, air currents, even air composition,
can all cause radical differences in the size, appearance, shape, and
location from one streamer to the next, and in the growth of a streamer
from one bang to the next. (cf Edward Lorenz's "butterfly effect") It might
be interesting to see the composite fractal pattern made by several hundred
(or several thousand) streamers.


Matt D.

In a message dated 2/1/03 5:45:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tesla-at-pupman-dot-com writes:


 >Original poster: "by way of Terry Fritz <teslalist-at-qwest-dot-net>"
 ><FutureT-at-aol-dot-com>
 >
 >In a message dated 2/1/03 11:15:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
 >tesla-at-pupman-dot-com writes:
 >
 > >John F -
 > >
 > >If each bang has the same energy why not about the same spark length?
 >
 >
 >John C,
 >
 >The way the sparks grow in the air is variable and depends on growth
 >in the air from previous bangs, and other factors.  The key here is that
 >the only carry-over in bang energy is within the sparks themselves as
 >they grow within the air.
 >
 >       It is
 >
 > >obvious that energy in each bang varies as shown by the varying spark
length
 > >output.
 >
 >
 >On the contrary, a varying spark length output does not suggest
 >that the energy varies in each bang in a TC using a synchronous gap.
 >The spark length varies simply due to variations in spark growth
 >in the air, due to random, electrostatic, or other effects.
 >
 >      Also it appears there is not a spark for each bang. It is possible
 >
 > >that energy in the bang is insuficient to cause a spark in an oversized
 > >toroid. This energy would then be added to the next bang to create an
extra
 > >long spark.
 >
 >
 >It's true that the energy may be insufficient to break out in a particular
 >bang, but the energy is not stored and added to the next bang, rather
 >the energy rings down and is frittered away in losses.  The bangs are
 >independent events except for spark growth in the air in a sparking coil.
 >
 >
 > >With an oversized toroid and without a spark the energy would return from
 > >the secondary circuit to the primary circuit and the primary capacitor.
This
 > >could happen with several  bangs building up to a super spark from the
 > >toroid.
 >
 >
 >Although a large toroid can
 >stop sparking while the coil is running, when the coil resumes sparking,
 >the sparks are no longer than usual.  The energy from a previous bang
 >is not added to that of previous bangs when the coil is not sparking.
 >Only a sparking coil can produce spark growth (in the air) from
 >bang to bang.
 >
 >
 >      However, this would not be very efficient because of the extra
 >
 > >losses. This is why the primary circuit and secondary circuit have to be
 > >coordinated not only for tuning but also for the energy requirement.
 >
 >
 >Often a very large toroid which can barely breakout, gives the longest
 >possible sparks.  This seems very "efficient" to me.  I put efficiency
 >in quotes because since I'm relating input power to spark length here,
 >it is not a true engineering definition of efficiency, but it is a useful
 >measure for coilers.
 >
 >
 > >Coordinating the primary and secondary for best energy use would create a
 > >more consistent spark output. This type of operation would be more
efficient
 > >but would have the disadvantage of not having any random super sparks to
 > >brag about.
 >
 >
 >Since spark growth occurs in the air from bang to bang, attention to
 >such factors is of questionable value.
 >
 >John Freau
 >
 >
 > >John Couture