3 phase WYE to WYE problems/ Fascinating DC Tesla Patent

["Tesla list" <tesla-at-pupman-dot-com>]

Original poster: "harvey norris by way of Terry Fritz <twftesla-at-qwest-dot-net>" <harvich-at-yahoo-dot-com>

http://www.elec-toolbox-dot-com/usefulinfo/xfmr-3ph.htm
 > >  > I am informed, that it is a bad thing to run a
3-phase transformer in
  WYE-WYE mode. That means connecting both the primary
windings as well as
  the secondary windings in WYE, or "star" as we say
overhere, due to
  problems with "harmonichs" and balancing.
 > >  >
  The 12 pulser transformer has secondaries connected
in both WYE as well as Delta, so taking the advise
seriously would mean, that I am restricted to
connecting the primary in Delta. This is not a bad
thing all together, but I would get a more versatile
transformer, if I could also hook the primary in WYE,
so I need to ask:
 > >  >
 > >  > Does anybody here know, what these harmonic and
balancing problems really mean, can it lead to runaway
conditions, is it a serious problem or just some
theoretical nitty gritty?
 > >  > Cheers, Finn Hammer

I (thought) I was able to obtain a doubling of voltage
rating past what the nameplate transformer gives in
(my interpretation of its actual step down rating) in
some of these problems inherent with a (TOTAL) wye to
wye conversion, with intervening delta, using a wye
based stator output of the 3 phase AC alternator
hooked to a wye to delta stepdown transformer used in
reverse as a step up transformer. In making this reply
I started going way off topic, so I categorized the
fuller reply at
http://groups.yahoo-dot-com/group/teslafy/message/530  ,
where here the more relevant parts are posted in this
reply...

"I think this was posted sometime ago about the
harmonics problem that can occur with three phase
lighting, (in WYE). Ive been looking for that url,
cant find it, could someone repost it? This fascinates
me for the reason that something considered a
hindrance, could actually be useful to some degree. In
fact I found a use for it! I was able to effectively
double the voltage rise ordinarily available from the
transformer! This was obtained by hooking a three
phase transformer up to the outputs of a converted
three phase AC alternator."

"Having noted the first conversion of a wye sourced
alternator stator to delta outputs, let us proceed to
the second conversion which occurs on the transformer
delta sourced from the alternator to its primaries as
the application is made. The nameplate data on the
large three phase transformer reads as follows. 15.7
KVA 3 PH. 500 A PRI
230-460 V. WYE
18.8 A. SEC 24 VAC DELTA 244 A.
( shown here as)
http://groups.yahoo-dot-com/group/teslafy/files/811.jpg

I had (assumed) this to be a 10/1 step down
transformer, however application was made in reverse
where the stepped down side noted as 24 VAC DELTA was
hooked to the alternator WYE sourced EMF. Thus here we
are under the impression that a wye to delta
conversion is made by application of that transformer
connection as a load. Now a visual inspection of the
other three connections on the side noted as PRI
230-460 V. WYE 18.8 A , shows that indeed that a
common junction exists on those outputs, so they are
in WYE. The common primary line voltage in tests is 24
volts from the alternator, but 560- 580 volts appears
on the outputs, showing about a 23 to 1 step up ratio.
Comparing the largest and lowest voltage values noted
on the nameplate gives 460/24 ~=19.16. "

"( Note at this time period, I had assumed that
solitary reading of one phase, reading close to 600
volts output from the transformer, that this will be
the same voltage on all three output phases, however
as things turned out, there was 200 volts, 400 volts,
and then 600 volts on each different phase. so this is
some concrete descriptions of the "problems" no one
normally explores. So I quickly filed that transformer
away, as no good for my applications, since I wanted
to explore a "balanced" three phase approach."

"Now in the above information, the only thing that is
true is the case for the 600 volt testing, repeated as
Coil 2 -at-57.9 henry conducts 2.15 ma
Z=V/I= 600/.00215= 279,069 ohms.
The book value reactance as X(L)= 2pi*F*L=
6.28*480*57.9 = 174,533
ohms, the the ACTUAL REAL REACTANCE was 60% higher
than that predicted by equation.

This is the same thing that happens with ferromagnetic
transformers inputed with 480 hz from the alternator,
the calculated reactance as an ideal value is lower
than that obtained in its real testing: so this is one
of the obstacles with trying an alternator/ 3phase
transformer/ 3 tesla coils in 3 phases of action
problem."

Recent thinking on three phase has resulted in the
perception that because of the fact that;
"The line current to a balanced delta load is
displaced 30 degrees from the phase current."
That in actuality because of this phase angle
difference between the stator line current, and the
actual phase amperage current on the delta
application, where it was "assumed" that Kirchoffs
Laws of nodal junctions should apply in any
instantaneous point in time, that in actually this
might not be true. This is done by looking at the
point in time where at 150 degrees, for a 1.7 amp
stator line delivery, at that point in time two equal
.5 amp currents are leaving the junction. We "assume"
that 1.7 amps is then present instantaneously on the
stator line, again because "the line current is
displaced 30 degrees from the phase current. In the
above electrical trades URL, this fact is also quoted
as the fact that TWO KVA transformers will have their
ratings reduced 58% when driven from an open delta
arrangement. The two .5 amp currents, both leaving the
node of the line current junction at 150 degrees of
three phase, is 58% of the value that instantaneously
entered that node as 1.7 amps.

This is where the realization of the superiority of a
4 phase, 90 degree electrical system comes into play,
where in that situation, Kirchoffs laws of nodal
junctions DOES get obeyed. In that situation the line
current is instead displaced 45 degrees from the phase
currents, and instantaneously in time when two .707
currents exist as the actual phase amperages leaving
the node, this the DOES add to the amperage entering
the node as 1.41 amps, thus obeying Kirchoff's nodal
analysis. Of course I could be completely wrong here
on this issue, as it is a complicated one, but I am
throwing it out for thought or comment.

This next year I will be better working with these
ideas, in as much as I DO have a dual bus generator
system -at- 360 hz that can be varied to produce this 90
degree angle relationship from 6 total phases
available. Although it does not sound readily logical,
in that scenario, there will also be a 30 degree phase
angle difference involved with each 3 phasing on the
opposite sides, and we do not simply put the three
phase systems "between each other as 6 phase", to make
that  90 degree relationship. I have also purchased a
high voltage three phase transformer on Ebay to
explore these TC options for the 2003 NE Ohio
teslathon, shown at
Someone said that one could insert %20 to keep an url
from folding so let me try this for the URL.
http://cgi.ebay-dot-com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1788658981%20
&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOAB:US:6
(obviously the seller of this transformer has an
incomplete understanding of the meaning of
saturation!)
In other interesting "off the wall ideas" I am working
on is a DC induction arc application for tesla coils
contained at
Actual patent in pdf should be accessible as
http://www.keelynet-dot-com/tesla/00568176.pdf

What Tesla has here is a DC generator used to make
high voltage, high frequency. This was in 1896,perhaps
before the more refined methods in patents in
1897onwards that actually used a AC generator.
What makes this patent so fascinating is that
apparently Tesla in the figure 2 second embodiment of
the patent, used an induction arc procurred by
interupting the field coils of the DC motor turning
the rotary arc gap itself!   Quite a fascinating
approach here!
According to the ideas in this patent I ought to be
able to use the fantastic DC  induction arcs made with
my large induction coils to charge the primary
capacity of a TC, using a rotary arc gap.
All of this speculation is being made to debunk one of
these "radiant energy" claims of teslas work, where I
too have misinterpreted a few things, contained in the
following posts;
W Alek's Notions of Negative Energy
http://groups.yahoo-dot-com/group/teslafy/message/527
Preliminary thinking on Bills "whacked out" notions of
Tesla's radiant energy claimed by less informed latter
day commentators.
Re: [teslafy] W Alek's Notions of Negative Energy
http://groups.yahoo-dot-com/group/teslafy/message/528
A more refined assesment of the true meaning of the
patent
Records of Motive EMF Speculations
http://groups.yahoo-dot-com/group/teslafy/message/529
A special experimental DC motor, once built and tested
using high induction coils; that might be employed in
conjuction with this patent. This motor employs
"continual magnetic field compression"  to turn a
magnet rotor, and might be replicated in miniature
using neodymiums.
Sincerely Harvey D Norris