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Subject: Re: balloon torrids???
Subject: Re: balloon torrids???
Date: Mon, 19 May 1997 16:35:06 -0600
From: Wes A Brzozowski <wesb-at-blue.spectra-dot-net>
To: Tesla List <tesla-at-pupman-dot-com>
Greetings all! I (sadly!) am so pressed for time that I rarely have the
time to post, though I've eagerly read this list for
years. I really don't like to come across as a wet blanket, but there
are
a few things in this thread that ought to be clarified.
On Sat, 17 May 1997, Tesla List wrote:
> Subject: Re: balloon torrids???
> Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 19:16:05 -0700 (PDT)
> From: gweaver <gweaver-at-earthlink-dot-net>
> To:
> Tesla List <tesla-at-pupman-dot-com>
>
>
> At 09:13 AM 5/16/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >Subject: Re: balloon torrids???
> > Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:45:29 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: SSNSanders-at-aol-dot-com
> > To: tesla-at-pupman-dot-com
> >
> >
> >In a message dated 97-05-15 18:36:01 EDT, you write:
> >
> ><< same thing with a coil - use thin wire to carry HV to the baloon and
> > then fire
> > off the coil.
> > >>
> >That would be interesting with a hydrogen filled baloon or bag. In a big
> >flask mix aluminum foil strips and sodium hydroxibe and cover the
> >solids
> >with water. Put a stopper in the flask top with a tube of glass and run
> >it
> >through some cooling water like ice and water in a beaker, then you can
> >hook
> >up a rubber hose after cooling and run to the baloon or whatever. A
> >50/50 mix
> >of the chemicals more or less will produce a large amount of hydrogen.
> >The
> >sodium hydroxide can be regular lye sold in the soap section. This
> >solution
> >will get very hot, and a 12" dia baloon will make a LARGE EXPLOSION and
> >LOUD
> >so be careful. As reaction slows add more AL. It will produce rapidly at
> >the
> >beginning and boil over if flask is too shallow, CAREFULL! Stephen S.
This will work very well, and I played with it a lot as a kid, but when
passing on such "gems", it's important to pass on the hazards associated
with them. Firstly, it's important to realize that the reaction speeds
up dreadfully as the temperature goes up, and the reaction liberates a
lot
of heat. This means that it starts up benignly enough, but if you use
enough, it will eventually boil the water, and if really large, could be
all but impossible to keep under control. I always found it worthwhile
to
add the plumbing needed to introduce cold water to regulate the speed of
the reaction. Once it starts boiling, there will be dissolved lye
spattering furiously inside the reaction vessel, and depending on the
way
you've set things up, you could have problems when it's time to remove a
fully inflated balloon. A droplet of that dissolved lye is enough to
cause blindness. The mist of lye droplets spattered out will cause
noticeable irritation when you try to breathe, and in sufficient
quantities, could severely burn your trachea and lungs. None of these
hazards is difficult to overcome, provided that the experimenter is
warned of them ahead of time, and sets up the apparatus to compensate.
The problem is when the hazards are not mentioned, and some innocent is
surprised...
The cooling method described in the quoted portion above looks like it
could remove most of the steam, if implemented properly, but it has no
way to control the intense boiling that can occur.
Next problem is that hydrogen mixed with air is quite static sensitive,
and unless you've purged the equipment to remove all air before starting
it, the thing could go off before you want. As already said, the
explosion
is loud. It can cause deafness at close range. It is also powerful
enough
to cause a surprising amount of physical damage to your fingers. If you
can set up the apparatus so that the balloon can be released or set off
without your having to handle it, so much the better.
The third is a more difficult problem. I can only speak for those that
live in the USA, but if you want to attract the attention of the Feds,
there are few ways easier than making explosions. Sadly, while the ATF
is
charged with regulating explosives, it's also charged with defining what
explosives are. This means that if they want to arrest you, they can and
will. You may get off, after a long and expensive court battle, or you
may
not. Furthermore, you may find that they will have confiscated whatever
of
your property that they think might be related to explosives, and that
you
will have to sue the government to get it back, even if you were
acquitted
of the original charges. Crazy? You bet, but it's no less real to those
who've had it happen.
I've quite a few friends who are either amateur or professional
pyrotecnicians, all of whom have run the gauntlet of satisfying the
local,
state, and federal regulations needed to do their work legally, and the
uncertainties in what is and isn't legal even in these cases are pretty
scary. I've also read quite a number of stories in pyrotechnic
publications, and heard a few first-hand stories, and can assure you
that
you don't want to deal with the ATF as an adversary. (No, this isn't
another complaint about Waco; it's just a warning about how scary a
bureaucrat can be when he has a lot of real power..)
Now, I'm not saying that the feds are gonna come and drag you off if you
go exploding a little hydrogen; people do it all the time, and provided
they don't hurt anyone or bother their neighbors, no one cares. What I
am
saying is that if you do cause someone to complain, and if you happen to
encounter the wrong agent on the wrong day, you could be in for a very
trying legal hassle. The chances are small, but they're not zero. Keep
it
in mind when you decide where and when to play with the stuff.
> You forgot something. What you are suggesting works but is contaminated
> with amonia and other impurities.
No ammonia at all. Lye is reasonably pure Sodium Hydroxide.
>Run the hydrogen threw a container of
> lime and you get pure hygrogen with twice the lifting power of helium.
This won't do anything to purify the hydrogen, except remove the steam.
Calcium Chloride, sold to melt ice, will work much better, can be
reclaimed by heating, and isn't so fine (as lime is) that it could form
a plug and cause you to pop a hose or burst a container
> This
> chemical reaction produces lots of heat. Sodium Hydroxide is Drain-O
It most certainly is not. Draino contains sodium hydroxide, but it also
contains aluminum, and contains further additives that suppress the
formation of hydrogen, though still allowing the reaction to liberate a
lot of heat, thus helping to soften drain stoppages, per its intended
purpose.
> and
> can be purchased at any industrial chemial supply for about $5.00 for a
> 50
> lb. bag and is one of the most dangerous chemicals available. If you
While a phrase like "one of the most dangerous chemicals available" is
admittedly very subjective, even I, (who made all the safety warnings
above) wouldn't go anywhere near that far. Yes, it's toxic and caustic,
and should be handled with care, but I'd class it as a hazardous
material
requiring a moderate amount of caution. On the other hand...
> like
> playing with chemical try mixing Ammonium Nitrate with laundry bleach,
> but
> not if the room temperature is above 94 degrees F.
...***this*** will produce some highly hazardous byproducts. Now, I'm
not
going to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't play with. But I
really
want to urge people who want to share hazardous procedures over the net
to
make some effort to explain the hazards, and to give as much detail as
possible as to how they're done. There are a lot of kids on the net who
still think they're indestrustible, and will try a lot of foolish things
without checking the hazards. As a former foolish kid who was lucky
enough
to grow up without serious mishap, I'm all for giving them the best odds
of doing the same. From the very nature of this list, we're all used to
performing hazardous operations, and no one's going to cower in fear
when
a little common sense and a safe set-up will allow us to do what needs
to
be done. If we outline the hazards and the problems, they can apply the
common sense and safe procedure, and everyone can have fun.
Wes B.