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Re: Capacitor charge, were is it?
On 10/28/96 22:25:24 you wrote:
>
>> Subject: Re: Capacitor charge, were is it?
>
>>From hullr-at-whitlock-dot-comMon Oct 28 21:56:24 1996
>Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:22:41 -0800
>From: Richard Hull <hullr-at-whitlock-dot-com>
>To: tesla-at-pupman-dot-com
>Subject: Re: Capacitor charge, were is it?
>
>Tesla List wrote:
>>
>> >From DavidF4797-at-aol-dot-comSat Oct 26 23:30:53 1996
>> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 10:22:11 -0400
>> From: DavidF4797-at-aol-dot-com
>> To: tesla-at-pupman-dot-com
>> Subject: Re: Capacitor charge, were is it?
>>
>> In a message dated 96-10-26 00:57:59 EDT, you write:
>>
>> <snip>
>> << If this is true we could not have a capacitor with a charge that has
no
>> dielectric (vacuum).
>> We can, however, and the charge must be held on the plates. >>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Here Here! I always thought that the charge was held on the plates but
was
>> influenced by the dielectric.... Interesting question. Somehow I think
you'r
>> right.
>>
>> - DavidF -
>
>
>David,
>
>The vacuum of distant intergalactic space is a perfect dielectric! It is
>the interfacial point between conductors and dielectrics which make
>charging possible. The charge, itself, always resides in the dielctric
>material. The plates just conduct it to the dielectic where work is done
>and carry it away to another point in a metallic circuit where work is
>also done.
>
>The idea that there are actually a quantity of electrons stuffed on a
>metal plate is pretty stupid and somewhat niave. Have you ever brought
>the back of your arm up to a slab of metal WITH NO POWER SOURCE
>ATTACHED and felt the hairs stand on end? ( I THINK NOT!) What about a
>piece of teflon or styrofoam? (ALL THE TIME) Where is the REAL charge
>retained? (the dielectric).
>
>The isotropic capacitor would seemingly give you doubting Thomases all
>the ammunition you need to blow me out of the water, but you haven't
>mentioned it yet! Well, here goes.
>
> A metallic ball in free space has capacitance! No other plate is
>needed. Yes, charges can be transfered and built up on the sphere or
>plate by itself provided energy is pumped into the medium (space) either
>by a metallic wire circuit to the ball, or a transfered electonically or
>ionically through the dielectric from another scource. The energy is
>stored in space at the ball/space interface.
>
>Chemists have long held that all highly conductive metals, especially at
>the surface, are a sea of available electrons. their charge values are
>what is transfered to space as energy is placed either on the ball or
>through opposite charging effects through the dielectric from a distant
>source.
>
>Richard Hull, TCBOR
>
>
What is it in a dielectric that allows it to store energy? If we imagine
that the orbit of the electrons in the charged material is slanted in one
direction (the negative side), then this electron orbit shift is where the
energy is stored in the dielectric. I challenge the statement that a vacuum
(pure space) is a perfect dielectric.
What is charge? I think it has something to do with electrons. Can free
electrons exist in free space? Space has no mass or charge and electrons
do. Free space is the worst dielectric because it can store no energy.
Energy and mass are inseparable. If there is mass, then there is not just
free space. If mass and energy are inseperable, then one cannot store
energy in free space.
There is no perfect dielectric. We use Eo as the permittivity of free space
as a theoretical value. All other dielectrics are given relative values.
In calculating the capacitance of any device, one must take into
consideration both values.
If you want something to conduct high frequencies well, use materials that
have low relative dielectric constants (waveguides use air, k=1.00x). With
mid range frequencies, higher dielectric constants are acceptable (about
4.0 on PC boards). At DC and very low frequencies, a high relative
dielectric constant may be preferred because it can store more energy.
Comments?
Phil Gantt
Phil Gantt (pgantt-at-ix-dot-netcom-dot-com)
http://www-dot-netcom-dot-com/~pgantt/intro.html