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Re: Capacitor charge, were is it?

Tesla List wrote:
> 
> >> Subject: Re: Capacitor charge, were is it?
> >Subject: Re: Capacitor charge, were is it?
> >> Subject: Re: Capacitor charge, were is it?
> 
> >From pgantt-at-ix-dot-netcom-dot-comThu Oct 31 21:53:36 1996
> Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 02:11:52 -0800
> From: pgantt-at-ix-dot-netcom-dot-com
> To: tesla-at-poodle.pupman-dot-com
> Subject: Re: Capacitor charge, were is it?
> 
> On 10/28/96 22:25:24 you wrote:
> >
> >> Subject: Re: Capacitor charge, were is it?
> >
> >>From hullr-at-whitlock-dot-comMon Oct 28 21:56:24 1996
> >Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:22:41 -0800
> >From: Richard Hull <hullr-at-whitlock-dot-com>
> >To: tesla-at-pupman-dot-com
> >Subject: Re: Capacitor charge, were is it?
> >
> >Tesla List wrote:
> >>Snip
> >
> 
> What is it in a dielectric that allows it to store energy?  If we imagine
> that the orbit of the electrons in the charged material is slanted in one
> direction (the negative side), then this electron orbit shift is where the
> energy is stored in the dielectric.  I challenge the statement that a vacuum
> (pure space) is a perfect dielectric.
> 
> What is charge?  I think it has something to do with electrons.  Can free
> electrons exist in free space?  Space has no mass or charge and electrons
> do.  Free space is the worst dielectric because it can store no energy.
> Energy and mass are inseparable.  If there is mass, then there is not just
> free space.  If mass and energy are inseperable, then one cannot store
> energy in free space.
> 
> There is no perfect dielectric.  We use Eo as the permittivity of free space
> as a theoretical value.  All other dielectrics are given relative values.
> In calculating the capacitance of any device, one must take into
> consideration both values.
> 
> If you want something to conduct high frequencies well, use materials that
> have low relative dielectric constants (waveguides use air, k=1.00x).  With
> mid range frequencies, higher dielectric constants are acceptable (about
> 4.0 on PC boards).  At DC and very low frequencies, a high relative
> dielectric constant may be preferred because it can store more energy.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> Phil Gantt
> 
> Phil Gantt (pgantt-at-ix-dot-netcom-dot-com)
> http://www-dot-netcom-dot-com/~pgantt/intro.html

Phil,

You are asking interesting questions for which you might be shushed in a 
formal course of study. (where time is of the essence!)

Their rule #1 is material dielectrics store charge due to electron 
orbital lopsidedness after polarization (over simplified)

Their rule#2 is space stores charge... just because it does.

I maintain that rule #2 is the major maxim and all charge is stored in 
space and space alone!  Matter modifies space with a bunch of 
electrified, linked, material entitys (protons, electrons, neutrons, 
etc.).  A material dielectric usually has a higher dielectric constant 
due to its tendency to modify that local space into a more dielectrically 
favoravble medium.  Highly organized chunks of matter with crystalline 
structures can't play the game, normally, as they phase into 
what we call electical conductors.

Whatever the gut issue is for charge storage, it must start with space!! 
(Which can definitely store charge!!!) any definition which carries over 
to solids must link to this vacuum dielectric definition.

We are not in a vacuum in our world, so our first and major daily contact 
with dielectrics are all solid stuff.  Air seems tricky as a dielectric 
along with liquids, but we ultimately give up saying, hey!, they are all 
matter and composed of molecules and atoms, so charge can be stored.  It 
is when we get to the vaccum capacitor and space holding charge that the 
intuition fails.  

Where's the Beef!! (or matter or particle or whatever to store charge???)

At the core, matter is never needed to store any charge... ever!!!!!

Space does it at 8.8pf/meter.  Throw in specially organized matter and 
you can store a lot more energy in the same SPACE.  If you want to talk 
electron orbitals, lopsided molecules, etc., go right ahead, but remember 
that their existence is required only to increase the permittivity of 
this particular local space.

All we need know and accept (from experiment) is that the vacuum of space 
can store charge.  It is the real key to understanding capacitance.

Richard Hull, TCBOR