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RE: [TCML] Stranded/silver plated wire (was Scientific Method)
If I may reflect back to the original subject line - Scientific Method...
I can understand that not everyone has the time to write detailed responses to posted questions. Not only "business people", but anyone with any full time job, and/or young children. I do both, but I either post in complete thoughts or I don't post, as my credibility is dependant on my ability to communicate clearly.
Unfortunately, the topic of Tesla Coils is FULL of myths, truisms, folklore, and unverified beliefs and practices. It is the mission of this forum to advance the art and technology. Blindly repeating what one has heard or done, simply because someone else has done it, regardless of how often they say it or how long they have done it, does not mean it is true or represents the best practice. This is where critical thinking comes into play - a quality that too often is lost to the desire for quick and easy answers.
It's easy and ego-fulfilling to say - "I've done something this way and you should too, because you're asking for disaster if you don't". We'd all like for everyone else to imitate and validate what we do. It's flattering. Yes, people will likely be successful if they copy something that works for you. But is that the only way? The best way? The cheapest way? The easiest way? Determining and making these answers known is what this forum is for.
I believe that Herr Zapp's questioning DC's suggestion concerning wire stranding is a simple and reasonable follow-up to something that has never before come up in this forum. DC's suggestion that the stranding is critical is like your dentist telling you that you should hold your toothbrush in your left hand on odd-numbered days. Maybe there IS a good reason, but you'll need to explain why. If you find technical analyses and queries to explain technical details to be tiresome or irritating, find a book on Tesla coils written in the 50's and be happy with what you get. This is not the place for you.
Critical thinking means that if someone says to use iron wire because it "enhances the magnetic coupling, and resulted in superior quenching", I'm going to reply I disagree, I believe it will result in inferior performance for these technical reasons... I don't think this is nit-picking, particularly if I back up my rebuttal with a technical analysis and/or experimental data supporting my perspective.
Regards, Gary Lau
MA, USA
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tesla-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:tesla-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx] On
> Behalf Of Drake Schutt
> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 12:02 AM
> To: Tesla Coil Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [TCML] Stranded/silver plated wire (was Scientific Method)
>
> In response to both Herr Zapp and John Kirby-
>
> Yes, DC's short posts do often leave more information to be desired.
> However he is a frequent poster and often answers novice's questions that
> others might respond with "check the archives". That being said, he is the
> only person (that i know of) on this list that actually makes a living of
> our collective hobby. A lot of business people that I know are often
> pressed for time which would explain some of DC's short posts.
>
> Drake Schutt
>
> PS- I for one am jealous of DC and other's- imagine being able to build
> Tesla Coils for a living! Although I'm sure it's not all peaches and cream.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 29, 2009 at 7:05 PM, jc <johncatherine@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > DC
> >
> > Other members do not speak for me. Far from being frustrated by your
> > posts, on the contrary I am happy to learn what you have to share.
> >
> > Regards,
> > John Kirby
> >
> >
> > Quarkster wrote:
> >
> >> DC -
> >> Please explain what "not adequate" means, regarding 7 strand vs 19 strand
> >> wire of the same gage.
> >> Why would the number of strands in a given size wire have any affect or
> >> influence on winding the secondary coil, the performance of the completed
> >> coil, cost, appearance, etc, etc.??
> >> (It's these incomplete statements with no supporting information that are
> >> so frustrating to TCML readers!!)
> >> Knowing that the immediate response of EVERY reader of your post will be
> >> "what possible difference can the number of strands make??", why not provide
> >> the missing information in your original post? Something like this would be
> >> far, far more useful:
> >> "I use the 19 strand silver tinned type wire usually in 14 to 18 AWG on
> >> many
> >> of my high power coils. The 7 strand is not adequate because:
> >> (for example)
> >> "It is far stiffer than the 19 strand wire and does not conform closely
> >> to the the secondary coilform."
> >> or "The 19 strand wire has 12% lower AC resistance than the 7 strand
> >> wire at the 125KHz resonant frequency of this particular 6" diameter X 32"
> >> long secondary."
> >> Or whatever, just be specific! This is a technology forum, not a
> >> gardening forum where "Plant the seeds sometime in August, and water
> >> occassionally" is specific enough to get the desired results.
> >> Regards,
> >> Herr Zapp
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- On Wed, 7/29/09, DC Cox <resonance@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> From: DC Cox <resonance@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Subject: Re: [TCML] Stranded/silver plated wire (was Scientific Method)
> >> To: "Tesla Coil Mailing List" <tesla@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Date: Wednesday, July 29, 2009, 6:34 AM
> >>
> >>
> >> I use the 19 strand silver tinned type wire usually in 14 to 18 AWG on
> >> many
> >> of my high power coils. The 7 strand is not adequate.
> >>
> >> Dr. Resonance
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 8:44 PM, jimlux <jimlux@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Lau, Gary wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Are you saying that you use silver-plated STRANDED wire for
> >>>> secondaries? Granted, AC resistance and Q are far less important on
> >>>> the secondary side, but the notion of this wire being superior to
> >>>> common magnet wire is incorrect. Stranded wire is inherently more
> >>>> lossy at RF frequencies. This is because the skin effect causes
> >>>> current to travel on the outer surface of the bundle. If a strand on
> >>>> the outside of the bundle weaves to the interior of the bundle, the
> >>>> current in that strand will try to find its way back to the surface,
> >>>> and this means traveling to adjacent conductors, through any
> >>>> resistive oxide layers between them. This strand-hopping results in
> >>>> a much higher AC resistance than if a single conductor were used.
> >>>> This is the reason that Litz wire insulates the strands from one
> >>>> another.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> Most stranded wire is NOT braided. It's something like 7 strands, so the
> >>> outside strands stay outside. THe other thing is that 100kHz-ish
> >>> frequencies have a fairly thick skin depth (0.2 mm in copper). It's not
> >>> like
> >>> at 15 MHz where skin depth is a few tens of microns.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>> http://www.pupman.com/mailman/listinfo/tesla
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
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> >
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