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RE: Chaotic Resonance(Solid State Coilers)



Original poster: "John H. Couture by way of Terry Fritz <twftesla-at-uswest-dot-net>" <couturejh-at-worldnet.att-dot-net>


Terry -

My understanding of RMS is that it only pertains to energy not to power so
measuring true RMS power makes no sense. RMS requires a time period so
cannot be power. Notice below I said the input was a 3 KW continuous
average. This means the input was 3 KW times time or energy. However, the
output was not continuous but an instantaneous type of output. As I said the
instantaneous conditions throws eveybody for a loop.

Instantaneous means not continuous but occuring in pulses of less than a
second of time. In other words a continuous application of power at the
input creates a continuous energy type of input. However, this is not the
type of output that was occuring. Note that the 3KW at the input occured at
one pulse per second or 3 KW seconds. However, the 3 KW seconds of energy
were not dissapated at the output in one second but in much less time than
one second. As per the equation that I showed previously the power increases
under these conditions and in this particular Tesla coil it increases to
about 1700 KW of power. This confuses many coilers and the words power and
energy are often used incorrectly because the time periods are ignored.

A computer TC simulation program must be capable of determining the time
over which power is applied for both the input and the output. In the case
of Tesla coils these times are not the same for the input and the output. In
other words it is necessary to know the "less than a second" times that are
involved in the outputs. The input times are always continuous but the
output times are instantaneous with varying short time periods. Tube and SS
type circuits are not Tesla coils because they produce continuous inputs
with continuous outputs, no dampened waves in most circuits.

John Couture

----------------------------


-----Original Message-----
From: Tesla list [mailto:tesla-at-pupman-dot-com]
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2001 9:05 AM
To: tesla-at-pupman-dot-com
Subject: RE: Chaotic Resonance(Solid State Coilers)


Original poster: "Terry Fritz" <twftesla-at-uswest-dot-net>

Hi John and Ken,

I think such confusion is what led to the wide use of "RMS power" where
such ambiguities tend to fall away leaving only the real power numbers
people can use.  Unfortunately, measuring true RMS power, especially at
high frequencies on messy signals, is difficult to do without spending a
few thousand bucks or getting lucky at the ham feasts.  However, MicroSim
and such programs can do the RMS calculations with very good accuracy and I
use them in MMC work all the time.  An example is the primary current that
has maybe a 1000 amp peak and some astronomical instantaneous power but
only a 15 amp RMS current level.  Difficult to measure but easy to
calculate with computer tools.

Cheers,

	Terry


At 07:58 PM 1/6/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>
>That is correct. The input power of 3 KW was a continuous average and the
>output power of 1700 KW was instantaneous. The instantaneous conditions
>throws everybody for a loop but usually means the power is for a time
peroid
>of less than one second. In this case it would be for an effective 1/566
>second which also took an efficiency into consideration. The two powers are
>not the same amount (3 vs 1700) but both refer to electric power. Confusing
>power and energy is how some people come up with over unit energy devices.
>
>I did not say "generate more electricity" which would mean more electric
>energy. I was referring to electric power not electric energy. Electric
>power is like a force. Electric energy is like work. A force is required to
>do work. Power is required to generate electricity or electric energy.
>
>It should be noted that a Tesla coil produces electric power in a different
>manner compared to an induction coil, flyback transformer, IF transformer,
>etc, etc. Comments from coilers will be appreciated.
>
>John Couture
>
>-----------------------------
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Tesla list [mailto:tesla-at-pupman-dot-com]
>Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 3:26 PM
>To: tesla-at-pupman-dot-com
>Subject: Re: Chaotic Resonance(Solid State Coilers)
>
>
>Original poster: "Kennan C Herrick by way of Terry Fritz
><twftesla-at-uswest-dot-net>" <kcha1-at-juno-dot-com>
>
>Yes, of course...energy.  But when someone says, "[T]hat circuit will
>generate more
>electricity than it uses by far.", that's when I start to resist
>believing.  When you say, below, that someone got 1700 KW out from 3 KW
>in, I think, perhaps, you are saying that they produced oranges from
>apples.  The "power" in, very likely, was >average< while the "power" out
>was >instantaneous<--or, at least, it occurred over a relatively short
>time.  The two "powers" are not the same thing.
>
>Ken Herrick
>
>
snip...