Re: Streamer Behavior

["Tesla list" <tesla-at-pupman-dot-com>]

Original poster: "Barton B. Anderson by way of Terry Fritz <twftesla-at-qwest-dot-net>" <tesla123-at-pacbell-dot-net>

Hi Steve,

S & J Young wrote:

> Bart,
>
> By "gas burner" effect (John Freau's term) I meant multiple streamers all
> around the toroid - like a bunch of individual gas flames around a gas
> burner.

Yep, that's what I thought.

>  Actually, for my unsmooth toroids, there were never more than about
> 10 small streamers at once.  Makes one want to reach out and smooth down
> those edges while one can see where the problems are!  Maybe I could do it
> with a long plastic rod.

Or take some pictures and mark the spots. They always seem to breakout from the
same areas and a picture helps identify where (bumpy or corregated
toroids). I'm
not sure it would help however. I can get multiple streamers on a spun toroid
when the power is low.

> See more comments below:

Yes, I read them and through some more comments down there.

> > Original poster: "Barton B. Anderson by way of Terry Fritz
> <twftesla-at-qwest-dot-net>" <tesla123-at-pacbell-dot-net>
> >
> > Hi Steve -
> >
> > Tesla list wrote:
> >
> > > Original poster: "S & J Young by way of Terry Fritz
> <twftesla-at-qwest-dot-net>"
> > <youngs-at-konnections-dot-net>
> > >
> > > Bart and other spark scientists,
> > >
> > > At Bart's request, and for what it's worth, here are some observations
> on
> > > streamer behavior vs BPS.  This is with twin 4 x 23 inch coils per my
> recent
> > > postings.  Measurements are crude but some trends are apparent.
> Observations
> > > are for each toroid - they break out about the same.
> > >
> > > First run:  Toroids spaced about 54 inches apart with one inch wires
> pointed
> > > toward each other as breakout points.
> > > The columns are 1) BPS, 2) corona length at tank cap charged to 10 KV,
> and 3)
> > > the "gas burner" (multiple streamer) effect threshold tank cap voltage.
> >
> > > > 1)     2)     3)
> > > 100     3"     17 KV
> > > 150     4      16
> > > 200     6      16
> > > 250     9      17.2
> > > 300    12      18.6
> > > 400    15      N/A - streamer between two toroids prevented gas
> burnering
> > > 500    15      N/A - ditto
> >
> > Simply looking at 100, 200, 300 bps, sparklength followed the power curve
> > as expected. (1/2CV^2)*BPS.
> > It doesn't surprise me that the streamer formed between two surfaces once
> > enough power was applied
> > (even if longer than expected), considering both toroids are at work, the
> > ion clouds around both, and
> > the how the streamer formations themselves can react with nearby objects
> > (and vice-versa).
> >
> > > Second run:  Bare toroids with no breakout wires.
> > > The columns are 1) BPS, 2)tank cap voltage at onset of breakout, and
> > > 3)approximate length of corona streamers at onset of breakout.
> > >
> > > 1)      2)      3)
> > > 100    13.6KV   6"  gas burner
> > > 150    13.0     8   gas burner
> > > 200    12.0    10   one streamer
> > > 300    11.6    13   one streamer
> > > 400    11.0    15   one streamer
> > > 500    11.0    18   one streamer
> >
> > This is interesting (and assuming gas burner still means multiple
> streamers
> > in this test) (and totally
> > assuming 10nF for example purposes):
> >
> > Without breakout wires, 6 inch streamers formed at:
> > 0.5 * 10nF * 13.6kV^2 * 100bps = 184 Watts.
> >
> COMMENT:  I calculate 92 watts.  (By the way, my tank cap is actually 26
> nF.)

I calc'd Vp and typed RMS. It should have shown "peak" voltage of 19.23kV. My
fault. (1/2CVp^2) is the energy equation. 184 Watts is the correct value for
10nF. However, since the "real" cap value is 26nF, the power is more like 480
Watts at 100bps and climbs up to 2400 Watts at 500 bps.

> > Previously with breakout wires, 6 inch streamers formed at:
> > 0.5 * 10nF * 17kV^2 * 200bps = 512 Watts.  (You probably meant 16, not 17
> KV) yes, 16.
>
> COMMENT:  This should be 0.5 * 10 nF * 10 KV^2 * 200 bps = 100 watts, which
> is about the same as the case with wires.  (The 16 KV is when more streamers
> than just the breakout wire streamer start to occur.)

Ah, ok. I didn't realize that. So, this comes to 200 Watts (again, peak voltage
of 14.14kV is used for this calc and 10nF). Or for 26nF, 520 Watts.

> > I'll stay away from bps vs. cap energy (as John said - too many variables
> > in this setup). But, without
> > breakout wires, it's interesting how the same sparklength was formed at 1/2
> > the bps and with less
> > power to the streamers. This is what I find remarkable in this test.
>
> COMMENT:  Unless I messed up with the math,  the power is about the same for
> the two cases.

You are correct that the power is about the same between the two (approx. 500 W
for the 6 inch cases). Thanks for clarifying the onset voltage of 10kV in the
first set of data. That does make a big difference.

Take care,
Bart